Carrier armour manufacturer?

[kosbie]

having had my Canadian Mk I blasted prior to restoration I came a cross a stamping 'SDA GALT' I have not seen before on the rear protection plate - see photo. I assume the location is chance as it is upside down and oblique. The carrier was made by Ford but I assume they didn't make their own armour so I can only assume this was that GALT was the company making the armour? Can any of the Canadian guys confirm this?

Rick

[Grant Bowker]

I almost guarantee that Galt was the place of manufacture (leaving SDA as the maker) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge,_Ontario
I don't know anything with certainty about who SDA were but one possibility is Shurly-Dietrich-Atkins (established 1873) who made saws and related tools in Galt with a branch plant in Vancouver.

[brengunman]

I've hear that when the armour, which was made from boiler plate (high carbon steel), was hardened by a quench and temper process, that it sometimes warped and was unusable. This was causing production delays so Ford (or maybe Montreal Locomotive Works who built the carrier hulls) looked for someone who could straighten warped steel panels. Apparently they found a manufacturer of lumber mill saw blades who had the expertise since saw blades must run true. Maybe these were the guys.
George

[Ron Pier]

I think that is why there is often chisel marks in armour plate. It's from the hammer blows that straighten the laminated steel. Ron

[rob love]

I just finished sandblasting a carrier about 2 weeks ago, and found that SDA Galt mark several times, sometimes two and three times on the same plate.

The hammer marks will be the straightening process. As well, there is a fixed number of little punch marks (usually 5 on each side armour) with a cleaned circular area around each. It is thought this is some kind of hardness testing. There are normally 4 of them in a rectangular formation on the larger portion of the side armour, and one more on the smaller portion of the side armour. I have found this to be the case with both mk1 and mk2 armour.

As well, sanding marks can be seen where factory holes were drilled for things like the smoke discharger mount or the antenna mounts. I am unsure whether these were punched before hardening or drilled before hardening.

There are about 3 pages in the design branch records re the manufacture of armour plate in Canada. If there is interest I could photograph them and post them here. I can't scan them as I don't wish to break the spine on these rather uncommon manuals.

[japes]

Grant's info is confirmed by Peter Ford's Infoex. Shurley-Dietrich Atkins of Galt is listed as making armour plate and universal carrier components.

J.P.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by rob love

...

There are about 3 pages in the design branch records re the manufacture of armour plate in Canada. If there is interest I could photograph them and post them here. I can't scan them as I don't wish to break the spine on these rather uncommon manuals.

Make an angle book rest to hold the book open, like a church pulpit for the Bible. Then photograph the open pages. I suppose if your needed to get some separation on the crease, you could use a small round rod.

[Edwin Wand]

I would be very interested in seeing the specs.

We are trying to document where various items of war materiel for Canada's war transportation industry were manufactured and how.

Presumably the plate was received from perhaps Dofasco and/or Stelco in Hamilton (about 30 miles from Galt and shipped from Hamilton to Galt. M Foundry or Varity Plow in Brantford might also have been involved.

At Galt, again presumably, the plate was sheared or flame cut to a pattern and holes were punched, as needed.

The Niagara area is at the western end of Lake Ontario and close by the Welland Canal which was used to ship many automotive parts and assemblies.

In general, Ford CMPs were assembled in Windsor Ontario and GM CMPs in Oshawa Ontario. Many of the single parts were manufactured in Niagara and shiped to Oshawa and Windsor for final assembly.

CMP owners will see the names of many Niagara factories on various parts of their CMPs.
These could be Hayes Steel. Now Hayes Dana but during the war years Hayes Steel. They did forging and cutting. During the war they had some quite heavy (and Noisy) Drop Hammers and many smaller ones which ran 3 shifts and seven days. No one every complained about the noise and if they did it would be pointed out that it was their patriotic duty to live with it. and so we did. By any standard it was a large factory but with the recent deindustrialization of the Niagara area it is gone.

The GM Plant in Niagara was McKinnon Industries, after about 1935 a GM subsidiary. At the same time in Oshawa the factory that was originally McLaughlin Buick which became GM of Canada.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaughlin_automobile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_McLaughlin

Other well known war industries were
English Electric: electric propulsion engines
John Inglis: Naval Guns and Turbines
Massey Ferguson: Mosquito wings and farm machinery including the first self propelled combine.
Lightning Fastener: Zippers in various forms
Thompson Products: Many of their parts were common to all companies and were stamped Ford, GM or Cyrco.

Recall the Hay Fork used by the English farmer during the capture of Rudolph Hess was manufactured in Niagara.

Later I will pass on a description of the various items produced by McKinnons such as 19 set vibrators, axle parts for CMP's, fuses etc.

[Jordan Baker]

Previous thread on marks found on Carrier plate.

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ghlight=hammer

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=22242

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Edwin Wand

Other well known war industries were
Massey Ferguson: Mosquito wings and farm machinery including the first self propelled combine.

That would have been Massey-Harris, the Ferguson link did not come until the 1950's.

[Lynn Eades]

And the Bren guns were made by Inglis

[charlie fitton]

I've got GSW on Helmets and ammo boxes

Electrohome on Radios

BFG on Rubber bits ( gas mask...)

TipTop Tailors and Montreal garment works on Battledress uniforms

[kosbie]

Many thanks guys, very interesting. Didn't really expect so many replies.
Rick

[Robert Bergeron]

William Scully in Montreal for badges and crests. GSW for Général Steel Wares for steel helmets, pots,mess kits. canadian Marconi for No19 radios for Universal Carriers. RCA Victor for same radios. Montreal Locomotive Works for Valentine and Grisly tanks. Dominion Bridge in Montreal for armour for preceeding. Etc...

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Robert Bergeron

Montreal Locomotive Works for Valentine and Grisly tanks. Dominion Bridge in Montreal for armour for preceeding. Etc...

MLW built the Ram and Grizzly, along with Sexton. CPR Angus shop made the Cdn valentine.

[brengunman]

It has been pointed out to me that my mention of Montreal Locomotive Works manufacturing the carrier hulls is incorrect. One should not quote from memory at my age!

W. A. M. Gregg in his Canadian Military Vehicles Profiles describes the manufacturing of the armour:

"Although a few hand built armoured cars had been built by Russell Motor Car Co. and others during the First World War, virtually no Canadian Manufacturer had any knowledge of bullet proof or armour plate production prior to 1940. The problem was further complicated by British advisors inferring that some mystical process was involved, which surely was beyond colonial comprehension. Metallurgists at Dominion Foundries and Steel (Dofasco) in Hamilton soon discovered, however, that good quality steel could take on all the desired properties through straight forward alloy and carbon adjustment. Dofasco established, through its tests in 1940, that a level of alloy well below that in allied use at the time, had optimum qualities for armour plate. The Dofasco formula was soon adopted by both American and British manufacturers. Dofasco was able to produce good plate but had difficulty with proper heat treating and straightening. Dietrich Saw Company of Galt had developed techniques for straightening large saw blades and were able to do the job with little delay. The plate was then sent to International Harvester Co. in Hamilton for punching and forwarded to Dominion Bridge Co. for hull fabrication which was done in an old plant south of Windsor which was reopened for the purpose."

George

[Robert Bergeron]

International Harvester Also made the Canadian Half Tracks during WW2 . I climbed in one not long ago at Andre Gineau's magic shed near Montreal.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by brengunman

W. A. M. Gregg in his Canadian Military Vehicles Profiles describes the manufacturing of the armour:

"Although a few hand built armoured cars had been built by Russell Motor Car Co. and others during the First World War, virtually no Canadian Manufacturer had any knowledge of bullet proof or armour plate production prior to 1940. The problem was further complicated by British advisors inferring that some mystical process was involved, which surely was beyond colonial comprehension. Metallurgists at Dominion Foundries and Steel (Dofasco) in Hamilton soon discovered, however, that good quality steel could take on all the desired properties through straight forward alloy and carbon adjustment. Dofasco established, through its tests in 1940, that a level of alloy well below that in allied use at the time, had optimum qualities for armour plate. The Dofasco formula was soon adopted by both American and British manufacturers. Dofasco was able to produce good plate but had difficulty with proper heat treating and straightening. Dietrich Saw Company of Galt had developed techniques for straightening large saw blades and were able to do the job with little delay. The plate was then sent to International Harvester Co. in Hamilton for punching and forwarded to Dominion Bridge Co. for hull fabrication which was done in an old plant south of Windsor which was reopened for the purpose."

George

George:
I was unsuccessfully looking for my copy of Blueprint for Victory so I could post that exact paragraph. Sounds like I was looking for the wrong book. Thanks for posting it.

[Lynn Eades]

Interesting that the steel was punched last. There must have been some good quality tooling for so many holes punched with a good level of accuracy.

[rob love]

That surprises me too. I have to wonder why they would not have punched them while still somewhat mild, then go through the hardening and straighteneing process. One would think the punching process woudl add stress to the plate.

As I mentioned earlier, on the hull I just sandblasted a couple weeks ago, it could be seen where the holes were cleaned up afterwards for things like the smoke discharger and the antenna mounts, but not for the rivet holes. Perhaps those were cleaned enough when they coutnersunk them.

[Lynn Eades]

Rob, maybe the hardening and straightening process changed the steel dimensionaly enough, so a to be sub standard?
The guys (and girls) involved from start to finish should have been proud of the quality end result.

[Bob Phillips]

I would like to throw a little information out about SDA - GALT.
I grew up in Galt about 3 blocks from the SDA plant. My neighbor was a traveling saw salesman and saw hammerer.In addition to a wide variety of handsaws SDA made the large ( 4 foot diameter) sawblades used in commercial sawmills. These type of blades are not flat but slightly dished so that at high speed they straighten out and run true. A saw hammerer was a skilled craftsman who traveled to service saw blades across Canada, and hammer them to run true again.
My mk2 carrier also was clearly labelled SDA GALT. The company closed 25 years ago ( maybe longer than that) and today the site is occupied by the new
Dunfield theater. Next to it is the large antique mall ( worth a walk through !!) that used to be the old Babcock - Wilcox- Goldie McCullough foundary where they made all manner of farm equipment, milling machinery, vault doors and safes etc. Back when we had industry close to home...B.P.

[rob love]

So Bob (and all), would the hammering marks on the armour be from a hand held hammer like a blacksmith's hammer, or was it more of a mechanised hammer forge type affair. I had assumed it was likely the latter, but when you talk about a travelling "saw hammerer" you almost make me think of a guy with a small chest of tools driving from mill to mill.

[Gordon Yeo]

The circular saw blades that Bob refers to had removable teeth that could be resharpened or removed when worn down or damaged. Keeping the saw running true in the kerf required it to have no distortion of the blade. If a spot on the blade over heated from excess rubbing and caused an expansion (bubble ) the saw would wobble beyond control and be unserviceable. This is where the saw hammerer services would be required. With proper training the hammer could hammer the steel back into its "flat" configuration and make the saw blade serviceable again. That is what must have been required to be done the armour plate for the carriers to flatten it.

Now, it's one thing to hammer a small area of a 3/16" thick saw blade back to flat by hand but it must have been a whole lot more complicated to hammer thousands of heavy carrier and Sexton plates.

[RichardT10829]

I always thought they were pressed flat again the forks were positioned over high spots before activating the press.

[Bob Phillips]

Well I have to admit I do not know what they used to straighten armor plate but I would assume it was done in some sort of press. Hammering a 48 inch saw blade by hand is one thing but mass armor production is another.
Unfortunately I do not even know of any of my old neighbors who are alive to ask! Pity I didn't think to ask 30 years ago when a few old timers were still about!

[rob love]

I had to straighten some of the front shields on my 105 howitzer due to rollover damage when they were in service. They will often have those hammering marks as well. The press will only go so far before you hear a "crack", and sure enoguh, there will be a crack in the armour. I ended up heating them red to bend them straight, likely destroying the temper on the hard side. If there is ever a next time I'll try the hammering method.

[Lynn Eades]

The process must have been done by a machine. those marks are too deep and too consistent to be done by hand. The skill probably came in, in knowing where to hit.

[Bob Phillips]

I just checked the archival collection for SDA at the Cambridge ( formerly towns of Galt, Preston & Hespler) and they have tool catalogues back to 1900 or so but nothing that I see in the WW2 era. They certainly made nice handsaws which are now very collectible...I agree that the marks must be machine made are they strike marks or clamp marks ?? BP

[rob love]

I also lean towards a hammer press of some kind. Otherwise those guys would have arms like popeye on spinach by the end of an 8 hour day swinging a 3 pound sledge that many times.