Engine conversions

[chris vickery]

Just out of curiousity, I was wondering what sort of engine conversions have guys out there seen, with regards to cmp vehicles? I am pretty much a purist, although I must admit that a diesel engine might just be a neat substitute for an old flathead or stovebolt. What have you seen?

[Keith Webb]

I've seen lots of conversions ranging from the GMC 270 to various Blue Flame Chevs to Holden red motors (202ci), Perkins Diesel, Dodge V8, Ford Falcon, Ford OHV V8s with auto trans, later sidevalve Ford V8s, to name a few...

[gjamo]

I,m about to launch into a 4.2L TD42 Nissan diesel conversion for my C60S delivery truck.
The 5 speed syncro box will make a pleasent change but I,m having trouble with the power steering and the airconditioning.
Just pullin ya leg.

[chris vickery]

Of particular interest is the adaptation of a Perkins diesel to a cmp. From what I understand, over in Europe and Australia, diesel engines are quite common especially the Perkins. Over here they're found mostly in stationary powerplants or on tractors and industrial power equipment. What sort of transmission combo would one use. Has anyone adapted the original Ford or Chev 4 speed cmp transmission?

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by chris vickery
Of particular interest is the adaptation of a Perkins diesel to a cmp. From what I understand, over in Europe and Australia, diesel engines are quite common especially the Perkins. Over here they're found mostly in stationary powerplants or on tractors and industrial power equipment.

Chris,
Perkins have been building diesels for trucks since the 1930's, maybe not common in Canada though. After the War, they brought out conversions for Bedford, Austin and Commer to name a few, to replace the petrol engines. The most common model for these, was the P6, six cylinder. They were often fitted to GMC CCKW in civvy use. Regarding CMP diesel conversions in the UK, the Ford was fitted with the 4D (like the Fordson Major engine) and 6D, while Chevs often had Perkins P6. The Chev would quite often end up with a Bedford 28hp or later 214 ci petrol engine and I know someone who fitted his HUP with a Bedford 220 ci four cyl diesel.

Richard

[Snowtractor]

in a 15cwt in Scotland. Perkins are common in Canada though not the preferred engine in highway tractors , I have seen them in construction and frm equipment and very common in powerplants, welders, air compressors, and hydraulic power units.
Sean

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Snowtractor
Perkins are common in Canada though not the preferred engine in highway tractors

Sean,
What I should have said was "maybe not so common in trucks and vehicles in Canada". I know they are trusted power plants in tractors and construction equipment, as I served my apprenticeship with a Massey Ferguson dealership and Perkins was owned by that company at one time.

Regarding the P6, they were often fitted in the Bedford QL in civvy street and a friend in South Australia has fitted its successor, the 6.354, in a QL, loads of grunt, over 5 litres compared to the old 3.5 litre petrol.

Richard

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
The Chev would quite often end up with a Bedford 28hp or later 214 ci petrol engine

This old and quaint rating system we had often throws our colonial and ex-colonial chums over the Atlantic into a complete tizzy. I have seen endless head scratching elsewhere especially over the Ford CMP manual that actually quotes 32 rated HP in the spec but everyone knows the old flathead V8 makes 90hp.

Its done for taxation and correctly called the RAC rating, works like this:

HP = D²n/2.5

where D is the bore in inches and n the number of cylinders, notice the stroke is not accounted for and the resultant figure has really absolutely nothing to do with the real power made.

We had to pay tax at the rate of 1 GBP/rated HP until the end of WWII and hence why England is blighted with a history of tiny engined cars, the common pre-war models like the Austin 7, 10, 12; the Morris 8, Standard 10 etc, use the HP rating number as the model designation. Even these tiny engines represented about a months salary per year in taxation, would you pay this now. . . . . . . .?

It is now obvious how wealthy people were to even run a car, especially those with say a Morris 25, 30HP Lanchester or a 40HP Rolls.

No one was exempt, even the army paid up to the start of WWII and you will note for, example, the Morris Commercial types had a tax disc holder fitted as standard to the left rear of the bonnet (hood). I expect when ordered the War Office needed the makers HP rating officially stated to register and pay taxes on the CMP imports impressed into the British Army.

Incidentally the accepted standard horsepower of 33,000 ft lbs/min is wrong; James Watt when selling his steam pumping engines needed a performance comparison. He found the best cart horses here could work continuously at 22,000 ft lbs/min and simply increased this by 50% and called it horsepower, thus making his engines very attractive indeed.

R.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by chris vickery
Just out of curiousity, I was wondering what sort of engine conversions have guys out there seen, with regards to cmp vehicles? I am pretty much a purist, although I must admit that a diesel engine might just be a neat substitute for an old flathead or stovebolt. What have you seen?

Chris,

I doubt The Purists on this forum would think "a diesel engine might just be a neat substitute for the original engine". The reason why they have not posted a remark here yet is probably because they are trying to come to again

Anyhow, there is a Chevrolet 15-cwt with "Perkins 90hp diesel on Chevy transmission" for sale in the UK, so apparently that conversion works somehow.
I've also seen a 15-cwt with a Bedford diesel engine, which I have been told is related to the Bedford 6-cyl engine which in turn is related to the stovebolt six again.

Just some possibilities to let The Purists have a fainting fit!

Hanno

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
I've also seen a 15-cwt with a Bedford diesel engine, which I have been told is related to the Bedford 6-cyl engine which in turn is related to the stovebolt six again.

Just some possibilities to let The Purists have a fainting fit!

Hanno

And, the Ford D Series in Brian Kitcher's F30 LAA which you have seen, we know of course this is to be de-converted back to its flathead configuration albeit with a post war engine.

R.

[Keith Webb]

There are a couple of aspects to this - on the one hand it's always nice to see a restored CMP which is original in every respect, but on the other hand there are the practical advantages to be had from larger or more efficient engines.
One of the most charming and atmospheric things about a Ford or Chev is the sound - the combination of engine and transmission. On Euan's new CGT with the larger Chev 6 the sound is very similar (although it lacks a fan noise) - the main difference is the speed at which it runs through the gears!
A Sidevalve V8 has a unique sound which in combination with the crash gearbox is quite melodious, especially with the transfer case in low range. A Perkins just doesn't cut it in this respect!
Engine conversions which lengthen the front are also ugly...
But a vehicle which looks original from the outside but goes really well is also appealing in a way.
On the whole, given the large number of CMPs in Australia at least I think we can afford to have a few "specials" as long as there are plenty of authentic restorations.
Here endeth the sermon...

[Pete Ashby]

Right in for a penny in for a pound…. The smelling salts have done the job and the fainting fit is over. Hanno you are quite right about the purists and I would humbly align myself in this august body of gentlemen.

Keith you make a very valid point with regard to the sound, smell and speed…… to me it's all part of the 'time machine experience' that makes collecting and restoring military vehicles a life's work. That sounds a bit heavy, but I take it seriously, getting things as right as possible. To give you a little example….

Recently my son David and I in our C15A 12 cab and Steve Stone in his C30 11 cab attended a show that required us to travel late at night. Part of the route took us up a 1:5 2.5 mile climb onto the Cotswold plateau….. the sound and sight of two 216's working hard in low gear on a deserted winding country road well past midnight under the light of a half moon is something that made the hair stand up on the back of my neck, writing this brings the experience flooding back . Sad as it may seem it was one of those life memories for me.
Over the years I have been lucky enough to have similar memories from the other trucks I have owned, Canadian, British and US all with original engines and transmissions long may it continue.

Having said all that there has been a number of discussions in the Oxford CMP crew workshop about engine/transmission swaps. The increasing cost of fuel along with the now frightening differential in speed between our trucks and modern British traffic is the issue here. In the future we may be forced into gas conversions or God forbid diesel engine conversions to keep our trucks mobile.

Gone for ever will be that haunting (and I use the word deliberately) sound of a straight six or V8 petrol working under load to be replaced by the snarl and rattle of a modern diesel, and while we're at it we could supper charge it as well.

But what would we have? a 12" to the foot replica to show future generations what my father went to war in, for me at least not a time machine.
But there are a number of you on this forum who will know that from the cab back my truck is totally new, indeed I have sent some of you plans of the body....... so what does that make mine replica with 216 engine?.

Difficult answer for which I do not presume to have an answer, for me it works…… and I guess that's what it's all about for me it works and if putting a conversion in your trucks works for you then that fine too.

One last thing if you take out good original units either keep them safe or pass them onto others who can use them for the purpose for which they were intended.

End of lecture
Regards
Pete

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

It is a bit of a conundrum, isn't it? Brian Kitcher went through the same with his LAA, which Richard mentioned; he wanted to drive it and his 40mm Bofors around the country to shows, but couldn't possibly afford it on petrol! Thus the diesel... the truck is immaculate, yet the moment it's started, one loses all sense of the esotheric which you mentioned.

My most recent experience was last summer when I acted as a foot guide to two Universal Carriers making their way back to the parking lot from our allotted display space. The whine of the flatheads was... wonderful. I could imagine - and hope I'll see sooner or later - a dozen or more of them in formation. A bloody diesel just wouldn't have been the same.

[Euan McDonald]

Hi All,
I have been down both paths on the subject of engines, when I rebuit my C15A I rebuilt the 216 & converted the bearings to slippers for easy replacment. After driving it for 14 years the engine is getting tired & it's time to re-think the options. I now have a Chev 235 Blue flame engine to go in over Christmas, but after driving the Gun tractor with a Chev 292 I now wonder if I should fit a 292 instead.
The other project I still have on the go is a F15 with a 302 ford v8 & c4 auto trans. I like the idea of keeping the engine configuation the same eg, Ford -v8 to Ford v8 & Chev 6 to Chev 6 & the other option to consider is 12 volts over 6 volts.
Thats the end of my say,
Euan.

[Richard Farrant]

Pete,
Could not agree more, it is sad to have to convert a vehicle as the engine is the heart of it. We can all recognise a Ford, Austin, Bedford, what ever, by the sound without even seeing it, and the noise is part of the attraction to them. I have often enjoyed the moment when driving along in my Bedford QL (with their distinctive sound) and seeing some old gent with his back to me and seeing his reaction at hearing the QL, must bring back memories as I get a lot of people who tell you how they loved driving them.

If conversions have to be done, (and sometimes if long distances are to be done then its logical, our friend Tom from Scotland is one in mind with his Ford LAA) then it should be done without any structural changes, so that the original unit could be refitted at anytime. A good substitute for a Chev 216 would be a late Bedford 214, which should slot straight in, I put one in a Bedford MW for a customer who intended doing long continental journeys, sometimes towing another vehicle on a trailer. The old Bedford 28hp developes about 72 bhp and the 214, same capacity is 100 bhp, still sounds the same and the old engine can be fitted straight back with out altering anything.

Richard

[Bob Carriere]

Being in the process of rebuilding a c15 cab 11 I have opted for a 1958 Chev 3 ton truck engine...... 261 cu. i. stock rating at 150 HP....called the Job Master. It as the full oil pressure system and external full flow oil filter provision. As per advice from the Stovebolt.com gurus I am installing the head from a Chev 235 to slightly increase the compression... somewhere around 8.5 .....stock cam stock carb circa 1958

This engine is a total bolt in..... fits the bell housing...... important to note that the right hand drive trcuks have a very special right hand bell housing that allows the cluthch fork to exit on the driver's side...

I had hopes of... still considering... using the 1958 4 speed.. fully synchro... stronger gear box......BUT .. it is somewhat longer that the original 1940 Chev tranny and I am not sure I canmake it fit without major surgery which i would like to avoid.

I realize that the fully syncho gear box will deprive me of the melodious craching sound referred to by Geoff... but I can alwyas shift the synchro without using the clutch fully depressed to impressed the purists..hahaha

All of the above have been dictated by the ease of maintenance..... ability to drive the usual 300 t0 500 miles to go to a meet.... at a reasonable pace ... with reasonable dependability. In Canada and Northern USA our highway distances and speeds really make a convertion a necessity....... In fact I may use 20 wheels on my C15 to get better speed and reserve my original 16 wheels for official shows and parades.

My goal is to get close to original...sound and sights.... with some degree of dependability and safety.

For the same reason my brake whee cylinders will be Stainless steel lined and I "may" opt for a modern split master cylinder from a circa 1970 Chev 1 ton truck.

I intend to drive my truck as a pleasure vehicle... even occasional mud holes will be visited.

To each is own!!!!

[chris vickery]

You go Bob!
There is a place for purity and a place for practicality. I love the look of a pure vehicle but in reality, here in Canada I believe that a great number of cmp's never make it out to shows etc. because of their "unique qualities" which make them a bear on our roads.
A trailer queen, OK go for the pureness. A driver to have fun in, go for it.
I love cmp's, but as I call mine the tenacious, stubborn old b***H, which is not far from the truth. Like a mule, when they want to, a cmp will go and go. On the other hand, give them a reason and stubborn becomes a new catch phrase.
All joking aside, in my heart I am a purist when it comes to any antique vehicle. What really changed my opinion on this matter is all the "works of art" that our museums inventory. Most private collectors have better stuff than any museum ever will...

[Matt Baker]

Gday all MLU er's,

I have just purchased a 292 chev engine to hopefully put into my C15 wireless van but i need to pick some brains for info re; how complex is this conversion.

I believe that Euan has been down this track with his gun tractor.

I would really appreciate any photos or info before i take the plunge.

Cheers Matt Baker.

[Wheldon Wishart]

I have put a 250 straight 6 Chev in my C8AX. Im pretty sure the 292 and the 250 are the same size on the outside. Had to lower the radiator down in the frame because the fan blades were spinning below the bottom. Cut a small amount of the cab frame away from the drivers side & remote mounted oil filter , otherwise when I slam down the clutch it dents the oil filter. And a front engine mount to bolt into existing front crossmember and original rubber mount.

[Ryan]

Has anyone put a 351 Ford V8 into a Ford Blitz?

[aj.lec]

Originally Posted by Ryan

Has anyone put a 351 Ford V8 into a Ford Blitz?

Have seen a F60S with a Cleveland fitted . Not sure if it was a 302 or 351

So would imagine a 351 Windsor would fit and possibly a 351 Cleveland
Wouldn't like to change the plugs though ...Very tight

[Ryan]

Ah I forgot about that truck Andrew.
I have a chance to buy a 351. Was wondering about what I could do with it.

On the subject of conversions I have:
A Ford that had a holden 179 straight six.
Two fords with 4d diesels
A Ford with a 8ba sidevalve.

[aj.lec]

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9023

A thread that I started ages ago regarding different conversions

[Private_collector]

I recently bought a Ford with a 4 cylinder Mitsubishi Canter diesel and 5sp box fitted. It can do about 90-95km/h flat out, but if wheels were changed from 16s to 20s you would get more speed. Incidentally, the fellow that organised the engine change has done so in a manner which has not damaged or destroyed the original engine and gearbox mounts, so a flathead could be put back again. I can't imagine doing that. My criticisms of this engine swap are twofold. One, as it stands, first gear is very low. So low that it is almost redundant, but not quite low enough on second that you can start off with that instead. I know I will get used to that, but haven't so far. The other is the noise! If you are expecting a purring V8, the chugging of a diesel comes as quite a noticable shock. I say that playing devils advocate. Me personally, I love the sound of the diesel engine. It seems to fit the vehicle as far as I am concerned, and sounds like a serious truck. Between that and the noise of wind through door tops, it virtually ensures you don't have to make small talk with your passenger, unless you yell. I wish Ford had put diesel engines in em all. No, not really.

[John Hackett]

The first Blitz I bought was a F60L with an Isuzu diesel in it. The original engine mounts were used, but minor cutting and mods were done to the cab floor. The linkages were also changed to fit the gear lever and the end result is an interesting gear shift configuration. The cab was in good condition and the engine run well before beginning stripping down. I am a stickler for authenticity, but if I want a cheap running reliable work horse for a property, a diesel blitz would be the way to go. There is also a bloke around Toowoomba that has a modded diesel blitz, with a flat bed tipper, fully registered and used for shooting and timber work I believe.

[Bob Phillips]

Like Bob C. I also have opted for a 261 engine,1958 to powr my 15cwt chev, 13 cab. It is now completly rebuilt and bored to +030. I will not be installing a 235 head at this point ( don't forget to drill the 3 cooling holes in the head !!) and unfortunately the 1958 trany is too long esp with the brake band assy.
I started with a 292 but it seemed too long. At the front I think I can use th original aterpump but use a fan with less number of blades.
This vehicle had a 454 v8 transplanted into it many years ago but was an undrivable brute, and crude cab amputations to fit the beast in! I hopw I can find some large Michelins (11.00x16) or may have to go to 20 inchers as well. If you ever had to drive a loaded 3 ton with a stock 216 any of the obvious alternatives are a tremendous improvement!!

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Guys

The whole issue of engine swaps have many things driving them. Personally I don't fault anyone for their decision or choice, because it generally means a CMP or other HMV continuing on the road.

I am in the situation where I have HUP with 216 basically original to the truck and fresh rebuilt which is not an inexpensive operation. A Pattern 12 C60L which now has a 235 installed as a fresh rebuild other wise all stock CMP. The third is a Pattern 13 C60S radio box with a 261. The C60S I drove for many years with its stock 216 so I know what driving 10,000 Lbs of truck with 84 Squirrel power in modern traffic is like.

(My average cost for complete engine rebuilds here in the US for the 216-235-261 engines is $2000-$3000)

Putting a more powerful engine may or may not make a CMP comfortable to drive at higher road speed of my three only C60S is happy at speeds above 45 MPH. Even with fully restored vehicles some like it and others don't. I suspect that is just the combination of all those heavy revolving parts and the little imbalances just make some trucks seem very busy and unhappy.

Now back to 235 and 261 engine swap it is possible to install these in CMPs with the stock fan and accessories and the stock transmission. If you don't have a original CMP bellhousing to work with the clutch hole on the right side standard 216 truck bellhousings can be converted to the other side.

The only thing about having the stock 6 blade fan is you need to match all the pulley sizes so that you don't over speed the fan. See http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/2...ifications.htm for more details. One other complaint from other people who end up driving in front of you. The guys driving Jeeps say they have the uneasy feeling they are going to get sucked in the grill of the CMP because of the fan noise. One guy described it as being like the Follow Me jeep with a fighter with a 10ft prop following him.

One last point about the conversion to other newer engines. As the stock of 216-261 engines is now all now 50+ years old the chances of finding good engines which will not have to be completely rebuilt is shrinking. So pick your engine transmission combination with an eye to what is readily available, physically will fit, but probably most important will end up having a RPM power and torque band not dissimilar to the original engine.

Hope this adds to the conversation and keep those CMPs running down the road.

Cheers

[Bob Carriere]

I had the same intention as you Bob of installing the original 1959 modern fully synchro 4 speed but found it would not fit the tight space between the tranny and T case so reverted back to a NON synchro CMP tranny. I assume you have spare CMP 4 speed to install or let me know...

On the water pump...... please look at it very carefully...... you may be able to get away with and fit a short shaft 261 water pump but the location of the fan willbe very low on your radiator and MAY cause some cooling problem.... the 216 water pump installed with an adapter plate will raise and center your fan much better. It will require that you drill and tap your 261 block and is much easier to do with the engine out of the CMP. We have done two conversion at the Barn and are very please with the installation.

We were fortunate enough to locate two 6 blades 216 gun tractor fans which really suck air through the radiator.

Phil's point of matching pulley size is crucial to prevent the jet engine sound and to prevent cavitation from too fast spinning of the water pump. Pulleys also come in various belt width size..... I am running a 7/8 wide belt with matching pulleys including one for the alternator which was easy to procure at a MF tractor dealer...along with the belt.

What are you doing with the oil filter system???? Don't forget .....DO NOT RUN your engine without a filter connected or a temporary bypass external line between the oil outlet and oil intake as you will fry your engine.

I choose to install a dual PH 8 spin on filters set up hidden inside the side frame and had 1/2 lines fabricated to hook it up. I like the extra oil capacity as it doubles for the cooling of the engine.

Would be nice if you showed us some pictures of your beast!!!

Cheers

[Bob Phillips]

Gentlemen;
I hope to get away leaving the waterpump down low but with a 4 bladed fan.if that doesn;t work I will try plan "B" and move the pump.
The original 261 had a canister type oil filter mounted on the manifold. Provided it will fit in/under the doghouse I will use it.
I like the idea of using a modern master cylinder (tucked under the floor somewhere) and would probably go for power brakes.My previous CMPs were never great in the braking department ( except for my first 3 ton with the booster) [I] suspect tghat one of the main causes of high speed wobble might the tremendous amount od semi balanced cast iron that spins around as the wheels turn. Anybody considered disk brakes??? or will this suggestion get me barred from the club and my membership torn up???

[Bob Carriere]

On the low 261 water pump make sure the bottom of the fan blades does not it anything.....

Brake wise.... a good totally rebuilt brake system with regular proper adjustments will lock up the wheels on my C15a anytime.

The bad brakes are usually due to leaking axle seals. ........ badly adjusted lining....... pitted drums.....glazed old linings......and lack of regular visual inspection and adjustment.

Still looking for pictures ........

Cheers