Help Need - Front Axle Keeper Washers

Phil Waterman · #1 09-09-09, 00:22

Hi All

I'm looking for a source of special axle washers that keep the front axle nuts from unscrewing. I've just nearly lost a front wheel on my C60S, tooth on washer sheered off and axle nuts came loose.

Has anybody found a source for modern replacement parts see picture for drawing of washer.

I've written up the whole unhappy event and will be posting it soon.

Bob Carriere · #2 09-09-09, 02:19

...... we have them blue ones.... them flat ones..... circular ones.....

....can hardly wait to read your post of the incident..... just glad you did not get hurt....!

Will remove one from a spare axle if need be...... stay tuned.....

Bob

Bob Carriere · #3 09-09-09, 02:38

Comparing the C15a parts listings against the C60 listings shows the same washer....... ID is actually 13/32....... two different outside OD size is listed..... one at 2 1/4 OD the other at 2 1/2 OD.... with the usual "after job #####"

...and Holy Krap.... the brake drums for a C15a and C60 are the same part.... or am I reading the books wrong..?

more later..... off to the barn to look for washers.....

Bob

Bob Carriere · #4 09-09-09, 03:41

Yep... confirmed.... the are the same and totally different.....

It seems that the C60 and C15a have the same size nuts...... 2 inches across as per Phil's diagram...... how ever.... the C15a castled nut is almost one inch thick...... has no keyway cut in the axle shaft for the washer slot and therefore the washer is smooth inside out and measures 1 13/32 ID and 2 1/4 OD.....

On the C60 the nut is the same size but only half inch thick but two are installed and they all seem to have two fairly thin sheet metal washer that do fit into the Keyway cut on the C60 axle.......

So the brake hub on a C15a is held fast by a cotter pin and the nut is pushing on a solid 1/8 thick plain washer.. on the C60 it is one nut thigthened over the slotted washer over the first nut..... no cotter pin....

In all 3 instances the washer seems to be the large 2 1/2 size and the washers seem a bit smashed up......

I only had a quick look in the field using the headlights of the truck.... and happened to look at axles with the cast hub cap already removed.... we have others to pick from....

For the record the MB C2 is not of much help..... in the parts listings it shows two washers... one against the brake drum...followed by the first nut...followed by the second washer followed by the second nut..... in the examples I saw tonight it seems that both washers were installed between the two nuts......

Curious to understand what could have caused the rotation of the washer with sufficient torque to shear off the tab on the washer..... also how many washers were installed on your axle... one or two and in what sequence....

Question for the better informed....... any idea if the one nut fixing was early models and later cab 13 got improved two nut/washer arrangement..... usually referred to in the manual as .... after job number #####

Time permitting we will pop a few more cast hub caps from assorted axles to see if there is a pattern.......

Boob

Bob Carriere · #5 09-09-09, 04:58

Hi Phil

Just finished reading the MVMVC newsletter....... those washers are "keepers"

....by this I mean that the two washers of thin sheet metal are installed between the inner and outer nut and being oversize to the nut ... they are beaten back over the nut flats.... one over the inside nut ...one beaten over on the outsided nut ....thereby holding the nuts from turning.... as long as the inside tab in the keyway is not broken...... I would assume that these washers are almost intended for "one use only" .......

As per Grant's suggestions I wonder if they are available from a commercial truckers part supplier...... or..... you may have to fabricate some....or ....see if Dirk has a stash somewhere..... or drill the axle end and use the C15a nut and cotter pin arrangement.....or weld the nut on the axle end...ouch!!!

Will nonetheless see what we have that can be salvaged or at least find a good one that we can clean and ask around.....before sendind it to you.

Boob

Grant Bowker · #6 09-09-09, 12:39

I didn't have any luck last night at Malmberg. The guy on the counter was playing the "I'm only the night guy" game. With that attitude, he'll be lucky to stay as a counter guy, more likely he'll progress to floor sweeper (hopefully one way, out the door). I'll try again today when the day staff are in, maybe at the driveline branch instead of general service.

I went back to Malmberg this morning. The day shift was much more willing to help. Once he'd been through his catalogs he went out back to do something. I'm not sure if it was to rest his brain, but more likely to consult others and check if they had any ideas about what he'd missed. The consensus was that what we're looking for falls between the light duty car/pickup/trailer market and the heavy truck market and that the truck driveline aftermarket isn't making these washers easy to find anymore. They suggested trying a GM dealer in case the part was still cataloged. I had tried an online search this morning, but may try a dealer to see if they are willing or able to find something the online missed. Do you read the C60 parts list as giving a number of 1810181 (replaced by 1811151)? Is there by any chance a part number stamped or etched in the old washer that could be cross referenced? (Sometimes on the edge to keep the rubbing faces smooth.)

I have asked some of the AMEs here in the hangar if they have ideas where to find such specialized washers and am waiting for their answer.

Next point of trial will be General Bearing Supply, there are some staff there who are willing to take on a challenge and don't like to be beaten. They were able to find a few NOS 928 bearings in the UK, but a few turned up locally much cheaper. Perhaps they'll be interested in this challenge too.

Another way around it might be to find some of the bearing adjustment lock washers that fit a keyed shaft and have multiple external tabs, one is bent inward against the adjusting nut and another outward against the lock nut. This only applies if there is enough space, I haven't seen or tried it. This style lock washer was used on the M135.

Dirk Leegwater (RIP) · #7 09-09-09, 20:44

Hi Phil,

Here a pic of a "Front Hub Retaining Nut Lock" washer.
Part no. GM-1810181 / C118Q-1192

Mvg. Dirk

Bob Carriere · #8 09-09-09, 22:27

Looks stange Dirk.......

Is it one washer or two....? looks very specialized to CMP only...!!

Or is the washer made of two parts and each half can be hammered back on the nut on each side.....?

Bet you Phil will order a bunch....

Bob C.

Bob McNeill · #9 10-09-09, 10:41

We made them in the lathe from hollow bar, simple cut to form two sides, dob of weld then file the tang square.

Phil Waterman · #10 10-09-09, 16:21

Hi All

Thanks to all who have responded so far, I was wondering if Dirk might have them, but the problem was trying to address is finding a modern application for these that might be more readily available to all of us. These are an expendable item which (I have learned should be replaced every time the axle nuts are removed)

I'm working on a longer better write up of this experience which I'll try to post soon.

From the picture below you will see the right and left keepers both of them sheared off. Yes I made these up out of sheet metal. I spent yesterday trying to make replacements out of 13 gauge steel using the lathe and plasma cutter. So far I have not been able to produce a replacement that I will trust.

Total cost so far for all new seals bearings and races/cups is $325 US all the Timken part numbers are still good.

Cheers

I've been searching the web for a dimensional listing which would be a match and while I can find the rear ones I have not found a source for the front. The problem being the diameter of the threads and the key way or tooth size.

In checking out the sources people have e-mailed me I am discovering some interesting things such as one major US sellers of old Ford parts uses the same catalog as one of the Canadian sellers with different headers and footers on the catalog page.

My next step is to check my other trucks to see if I need to be replacing the keepers on them as well and to confirm what sizes my trucks have. Once I've done that I maybe contacting Dirk and asking him to post me a bunch.

Please keep pondering on this while your at it check your own trucks, also think about the logic of why both would fail and why the left side nuts backed themselves off.

Cheers Phil

Paul Singleton · #11 11-09-09, 01:58

Hi Phil, as for the left side nuts coming loose on the wheel bearing the forward rotation of the wheel will tend to loosen the nuts. On the right hand side the rotation would tighten the nuts. That was the reasoning behind the left hand thread wheel nuts on the left side of CMP vehicles.
As for the tang shearing off the washer I have had the same problems when tightening the outside nut. Over tightening the outside nut tends to turn the inside nut slightly and shears off the tang.
I have no idea on where to source the washer. Any medium duty trucks that I have worked on have a flat on the spindle for the washer and not a tang. I will keep a look out on some of the industrial stuff at work for a washer.

Paul

Bob McNeill · #12 11-09-09, 11:47

The washer shown must have been off heaps of times as you only fold the tab over onto one flat each time, if you adjust the brg properly it will take years until it has to be redone, use loctite wickin 290 after final adjustment or threadlock when happy with result.

gjamo · #13 11-09-09, 12:05

Hi Phil,
Just do a search for tab washers on the web. Stacks of manufacturers your side of the swamp.
Graeme

ozm29c · #14 11-09-09, 23:56

Phil,
With modern technology available to you these days, could I suggest that you send your drawing to either a Laser or Water jet cutter and have a new set of washers cut out. Once you pay for the set up cost the actual production cost is very affordable

Cheers
John Wilson

Lionelgee · #15 13-09-09, 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi All

I'm looking for a source of special axle washers that keep the front axle nuts from unscrewing. I've just nearly lost a front wheel on my C60S, tooth on washer sheered off and axle nuts came loose.

Has anybody found a source for modern replacement parts see picture for drawing of washer.

I've written up the whole unhappy event and will be posting it soon.

G'day Phil,

After looking at the photos of your broken washer I am sure I have seen something similar either on tractor motors and I think some motorcycles. It might give you a broader field to search for a supplier or maybe just confuse things too. Anyway....

Kind Regards
Lionel

hrpearce · #16 13-09-09, 12:33

Hi All,
If suitable tab washers carn't be found the disc-lock system looks likely to be a viable alternative. The discs would have to go on before the first nut for it to work. Just google disc-lock to read about them.

Lynn Eades · #17 13-09-09, 23:30

It is likely the inner tab was broken on assembly.The finish/ manufacturing style of the nut is a major factor
Some times the washer will turn with the nut rather than staying still with the inner race. This is enough to sheer the tab.
I would carefully lube the nut face of the washer, and leave the beaing face dry. The other thing to do is mark the washer where you can see it, to see that it hasn't moved after tightening.
A failing bearing could possibly turn the washer, tearing the tab off (if the inner race turns on the stub axle)The inner race, the lock washer, and the lock nuts, all turn as one.
I have seen similar set ups on other vehicles, where over time the preload of the bearings relax.the nut relaxes on the thread,(The bearing inner race wears the side of the lock washer away) and lets the lock washer become loose. The washer then flogs out the tab.
I hope this helps.

Bob McNeill · #18 14-09-09, 11:11

Am i confused here or is there something I,ve missed. When I setup the front hubs the axle had to be tight in the drum (hub) , the first nut pulled the axle TIGHT, the lock washer went on then the lock nut. IF the inner nut is Tight it will not turn as the lock nut is done up, nothing rotates to move the nut ,Unlike the rear hubs where the brgs can spin on the housing.

Lynn Eades · #19 14-09-09, 13:28

Im not familiar with this set up. I was speaking generally. Normally, if there is a double nut, the first nut is not done up tight, because after the lock tab goes on, and the second nut is fitted and tightened, the preload will be too tight.The reason for this is that the nut moves from one side of the thread to the other, due to the thrust from the lock nut. This increases the preload on the bearings. To arrive at the correct preload, we have to back of the first nut, knowing that the lock nut, when tight, will make the preload right.
This is when it is easy to damage the lock tab.
Does this make sense?

Phil Waterman · #20 15-09-09, 02:36

Hi All

As I was having problems posting to MLU to day I've posted the first installment of How Close Can You Come To Loosing A Wheel with pictures at http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...0a%20wheel.htm

I want to thank everyone who has made suggestions, I've followed up on all of your suggestions it turns out that these bloody KEEPERS, LOCKING WASHERS, TAB WASHERS etc are known by various names. Most of the fabricators listed on the web have a minimum parts order of 100 to 1000, slightly more than I need. Though I have found a local shop with a digital controlled plasma unit that looks like they can cut me a smaller number at a reasonable cost.

Now the other point of interest is that each of my three trucks uses a different size or method of locking the front wheel nut.

I'll keep you posted on my progress.

Cheers Phil

Bob Carriere · #21 15-09-09, 03:27

.... I think you have exhausted your share of luck for this years.

Wonderful pictures and account of the incident.

Boob

Hanno Spoelstra · #22 23-12-09, 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirk Leegwater

Here a pic of a "Front Hub Retaining Nut Lock" washer. Part no. GM-1810181 / C118Q-1192

Here's another picture of the ones Dirk has in stock, in comparison to what I took off my F15A. As you can see the tabs break after bending more than once.

The new replacement is slightly larger in diameter, and about twice as thick. I have yet to see how they work and if the increased thickness does not pose any problems. Will let you know later if there is anything to report.

And thanks for the heads- and write-up, Phil!

Hanno

Phil Waterman · #23 24-12-09, 00:16

Hi Guys

Been meaning to post a follow-up I have several of the new design nut keepers thanks to Dirk via Bob. These are well traveled parts. I have not yet tried one of them but I suspect that they are a late replacement part which was improved, probably as a result of failures. The important part is that the tab is probably 3 times as thick as the original. Which says to me that field failures of the tabs was a significant problem.

I will do a close dimensional comparison and get back with what I find. The design of these look to be a far better design to copy. I'll be able to give a full life cycle test result ten years after I install one of them.

Thanks to everybody who gave assistance and suggested avenues of research.

Cheers Phil

Lionelgee · #24 24-12-09, 06:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi Guys

Been meaning to post a follow-up I have several of the new design nut keepers thanks to Dirk via Bob. These are well traveled parts. I have not yet tried one of them but I suspect that they are a late replacement part which was improved, probably as a result of failures. The important part is that the tab is probably 3 times as thick as the original. Which says to me that field failures of the tabs was a significant problem.

I will do a close dimensional comparison and get back with what I find. The design of these look to be a far better design to copy. I'll be able to give a full life cycle test result ten years after I install one of them.

Thanks to everybody who gave assistance and suggested avenues of research.

Cheers Phil

Good to hear that you have the parts to get Beauty back safely together Phil. I revisted one of your old messages which had the link to when you took everything apart and you ended the message by writing More about refitting and reassembly to follow Just wondering if you did take the photos and if they have been posted somewhere yet? Merry Christmas.

Kind Regards
Lionel

Phil Waterman · #25 24-12-09, 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lionelgee

Good to hear that you have the parts to get Beauty back safely together Phil. I revisted one of your old messages which had the link to when you took everything apart and you ended the message by writing More about refitting and reassembly to follow Just wondering if you did take the photos and if they have been posted somewhere yet? Merry Christmas.

Kind Regards
Lionel

Hi Lionel

Yes, I did take pictures of rest of the process of overhauling that entire knuckle and brake assembly, along with reassembly on to the truck. No I have not posted them yet, thanks for reminding me I will do it soon. Yes, truck is back on the road had it out for Veterans day nice 100+ mile trip.

Merry Christmas to all.

Hanno Spoelstra · #26 30-03-14, 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Been meaning to post a follow-up I have several of the new design nut keepers thanks to Dirk via Bob. These are well traveled parts. I have not yet tried one of them but I suspect that they are a late replacement part which was improved, probably as a result of failures. The important part is that the tab is probably 3 times as thick as the original. Which says to me that field failures of the tabs was a significant problem.

I will do a close dimensional comparison and get back with what I find. The design of these look to be a far better design to copy. I'll be able to give a full life cycle test result ten years after I install one of them

Hi Phil,

Did you end up fitting these "new design" lock washers? How they they work, do you have to bend them over the nut face?

Thanks,
Hanno

Phil Waterman · #27 31-03-14, 00:44

Hi Hanno

I actually don't remember if I installed one of the new ones or one of the ones I machined up? Or which truck as both of the Pat 13s have had the left front drum off since then. Will look in my special parts box and see if I used one or two. Strange I take pictures of so much but I don't have a final assembly photo.

Do know that I've added checking all four retainers on all three trucks as part of the spring servicing.

Which ever keeper used, sure that it has tab bent down to lock the nuts.

Will check and report back.

Cheers Phil