New D-Day vehicles for the Canadian army

[derk derin]

Hi all,
I was watching an old video of the Bill Gregg CMP get together in the mid 80's and found it very interesting the guests he had that were part of the whole picture of design and development of Canadian production of military vehicles and one fact I had never heard before that one of the guest speakers mentioned was that he recommended that the Canadian Army have all brand new vehicles for the Normandy invasion at a cost of I believe $130,000,000.00 which he said was approved and done.Can anyone add to this story as my copy of the tape had been a copy of copies and the sound was poor.I saw Phil Waterman come up and ask questions to the guests,maybe you can confirm this story? I thought it was an interesting fact that somebody didn't want to use vehicles that had been worn out and started the invasion with new vehicles.I would also like to know if there is a copy of this tape still around with good audio to hear the rest of the stories they had to tell.
Derk.

[peter simundson]

I have been working with the Unit vets for years and personally talked the ears off some Carrier guys. All the Vehicles issued and used on D Day were fresh from War Stores. They were a little reluctant to do this but were ordered to. Some of the later followup vehicles were Unit Resources but on D Day...New Vehicles.
Not only that the third Division had new weapons, Uniforms and web. The helmets were the Mk 3 style , the web was Brit. web with web "D"'s, and the uniforms were Canadian style British made. With the exception of the Brens the weapons were new Brit made stens and Enfields.

P Simundson

[Ed Storey]

Can the statement about the uniforms and equipment for the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division being issued new kit for the Normandy invasion be supported with primary source documentation? I do know that certain specific new 'invasion related' kit such as Mk III Helmets, Boots, Assault Jerkins and Lightweight Respirators were issued for the invasion, but to completely re-equip the whole division with clothing is new to me. I was at the event that was held by Bill Gregg and yes the vehicles were replaced because for the most part after several years of wear, tear, exercises and multiple drivers, the B vehicles at least were pretty clapped out. As well, the newer B vehicles were No. 13 cabs and it only makes sense to start the campaign with new B vehicles. In the case of the A vehicles, many were already new and they do not recieve the heavy useage that B vehicles do so I would doubt that they would all get replaced, although I am not sure what was done with the Universal Carriers.

Getting back to weapons, to be frank, it would not make sense to replace all of the small arms just for the sake of newness when they do not wear out as fast as mechanical transport. You also have to look at the 'big picture' as the cost in time and material to manufacture items and then ship them to the UK would mean that just replacing things to have new, in the case of uniforms and equipment, would not necessarily make sense. Anyway, if the uniform statement can be supported with documentation, then fine.

[derk derin]

Peter,
Do you have any info on when they began to produce the new vehicles and how long it took to build up the right amount of vehicles for the invasion?
Bill Gregg's book Canada's fighting vehicles was aparently copied from an original list of vehicles needed and picked for the invasion from what I understand.Were the pictures that were taken of the vehicles already produced and in England ready to use for D-Day or were the pictures a visual list of what to order and build for the planned invasion?

Ed,
I have been a collector of Canadian webbing and equipment for 25+ years now and have always wondered when the British equipment was first used by the Canadians.I can see battledress being readily available and issued as needed but who makes the decision to try new equipment like the MK 3 or 4 helmets,the battle jerkin and other items not normally issued to Canadian troops.
Derk.

[peter simundson]

Regarding the Uniforms. I have Invasion worn Uniforms. They are Canadian style (no outside buttons) and British made. The high boots were 3rd Div. Well known, as are the helmets. The webbing is British made and marked. Easily spotted by the Canvas D's. I have several sets of it all. Two were worn by the vets that gave it to me.
After the Invasion relaced material was from Canadian Stores.
And the invasion battledress had thad gas coating on it that hardened from the water.
Imagine coming ashore in a totally soaked Bd. uniform with all pouches and packs filled with water. What fun.

Simundson

[Ed Storey]

There are several questions and responses happening at the same time from this thread with regards to uniforms and I will attempt to add something to this.

When it comes to the design, manufacture and issue of clothing and equipment for the most part, Canadian uniform designs stemmed from the UK. Not everything, but if we look at in this case just BD, boots, web and helmets, the Canadian Army worn items that were designed in the UK. Generally this was because the Canadian Army was part of the British Empire in which the doctrine, tactics and equipment were all British, therefore you could in theory have British, Canadian and say Indian troops all fight side-by-side essentially using the same ‘stuff’, and fighting using the same methods.

Uniforms and equipment constantly evolve so at some point through testing and evaluation there would be a new design for a field uniform or a helmet, I have no documentary proof, but I am speculating that examples would have been sent to the various countries for trials and potentially adapting. In the case of Canada who would be manufacturing its much of its own clothing and equipment a decision would have to be made as to if the new item would be adopted and if so was there the budget and resources. All of this would have to be looked at in the overall scheme of Imperial defence and if you look at Canada during the Great War were we manufactured clothing and equipment that was not compatible with UK, the items had to be replaced once the army was in the field so the details of who would pay and how much stuff would have to be worked out. If Canada adopted a new item, then there is also the decision of how many and if the item will be made in Canada or purchased from the UK. All of this procurement is not taken lightly and there is more to it then the average collector knows and I do not profess to be a supply expert.

In the case of Mk III Helmets, it was the ‘new’ helmet and the decision would have to have been made as to if the whole Army was going to get this helmet, what would be done with the Mk II Helmets already in stock and who would make it. What you have is a decision to purchase a limited number of MK III Helmets from the UK, primarily for 3rd Division and to use up the stock and retain the Mk II for general issue. For sure someone was keeping track of the number of MK IIIs and Mk IV Helmets used by Canada and someone in the Canadian military would have stipulated who could or could not get the helmet and some sort of reckoning would have taken place at the end of the war; as we all know Canada did not adopt the Mk III and did not manufacture it.

Uniforms and web would go through the same process. Obviously in Canada, in the case of BD and web, the issue kit would be Canadian manufacture and you would take this kit with you when you sailed for Europe. Once in Europe, if something needed replacing, they the individual would take whatever were given from QM. Now Canada tried to make sure that the Canadians wore Canadian manufactured goods, especially in the case of BD which was of a better quality and looked a little different. But, if there were not Canadian items available in the supply system, then obviously British or whatever (could be Indian in Italy) would have to do. In the case of webbing, 1st and 2nd Divisions went to the UK in 1908 Pattern Web and replaced it with UK manufactured 1937 Pattern Web and common sense would dictate that you are not going to force two complete divisions to re-equip with Canadian made web at a latter date just so everyone had Canadian made. Obviously personnel coming into those formations from Canada would have Canadian made web. As items were replaced, you could potentially see a mix of UK and Canadian web and in fact this is common in sets obtained from Veterans.

Now the topic of uniforms and equipment for 3rd Division for Normandy, unless someone can come up with a document that proves that the whole of 3rd Division was issued new uniforms and equipment for Neptune, I tend to doubt it was done. As I stated, for B vehicles yes, it makes sense, but not uniforms. Specialist clothing for the invasion was issued to some of the sub-formations of the division, such as Mk III Helmets, boots and Assault Jerkins, but even this was not division wide. Yes, the BD was suppose to have been anti-gas treated, if this was division-wide, I have no idea.

As for having uniforms that landed at Normandy, fought at Vimy Ridge or took part in the Battle at Kap Yong, I tend to think that owning a uniform from any of these key battles is very wishful thinking on the part of the owner. Veterans, god love them, are wonderful people and they may tell you that they wore the uniform at such a key battle but you have to think, what are the chances of a person wearing, every day, the same uniform from June 1944 until May 1945 and then wearing it back to Canada? I can see having webbing, a helmet, a respirator or a razor that could well have landed at Normandy, but to have a uniform that not only survived 11 months of day-to-day wear but also the communal unit laundry system and the odd chance to exchange worn clothing for newer; boggles my very simple mind.