C60X Machinery bodies..Manuals of equipment? surviving "complete" examples?

[Alex van de Wetering]

I started on a C60X Machinery scalemodel a few years ago, but with priorities shifting the project ended in a dark corner of my room. Now, I want to get going again. However I am still looking for info on the equipment fitted in the Lindsey House type body.
Bill Gregg mentions 14 different versions of the Lindsey body, 4 of them for the Russian "market". I am desperately looking for info on the C, D.......or bascially any body with the twin rear doors and drop sides.

Anyone know of any C60X Machinery survivors that still have their original equipment? Anyone know of the availability of Manuals for the body interiors? I have a great manual for the QMG-MT Machinery body on the Diamond T, but that body is slightly longer than the one fitted to the C60X and I don't know if the equipment matches any of the ones above.

Alex

[Noel Burgess]

Alex - I have some 1/76 scale drawings by G.W.Lacey which dont show any internal layout but do list the contents of the C60X machinery bodies as follows:

C - 3kw, 110 volt DC, Outboard Marine or Lryland generator driven by Briggs & Stratton engine; Leblond lathe, 30" centres, 17" swing; 3 speed Wells metalcutting bandsaw; portable drills & grinding equipment.

D - 3kw, 110 volt DC switchboard; South Bend 8187A tool room lathe; Peerless watchmakers lathe; bench drill & tool grinder; Portable heavy duty electric drills.

Dont know where Mr Lacy got his information from but hope this helps.

I also have 1/76 drawing by J.B. Church - again no interior details but he lists bodies 8L1 to 8L17 with 8L1, 8L2 and 8L11 being stores vehicles; 8L3 shown as not produced; 8L9, 8L10, 8L13, 8L15 & 8L17 being for the USSR. Canadian machinery roles are listed as A, B, C, D, F. Z. CZ and RE7.5kw.

Will be interested to see if anyonne can offer some more details
Noel

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Alex

My memory says that photos and layout diagrams have been posted on MLU but I have been unable to get the search feature to find them, maybe somebody else will get the search to work better.

In the mean time is are pictures 142-143 on http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.com/CMP84.htm truck you are looking for?

Cheers Phil

[cletrac (RIP)]

Here's some info from Military Vehicle Profiles.

[Noel Burgess]

Those are great David, however I think the first picture should be described as a Role A not L.
Noel

[Alex van de Wetering]

Thanks for the responces, guys.

@ Noel. Very interesting. Indeed, It would be great to see some more "proof" of the descriptions of Mr. Lacey, but this is already a good start. Do the drawings and description also cover the other Machinery and Stores types?

@ Phil
Indeed, some CMP Machinery bodies have been covered on the forum before, but If I remember correctly, most were of the "Open" body type...the GS ones and not the ones using the Lindsey bodies......But, I will double check to be sure. The one I am after is the big boxy body as fitted to the C60X 6x6 as seen in Dave's post. The truck at Borden is very sweet and surely on my wish list when it comes to scale models; your pictures are very helpfull for that project and I also have some pics of the same truck from Keith's website and from a fellow modeller.

@ Dave
That's indeed the Gregg Publication I was referring to. It gives a nice list of the different models produced, but for my project I am looking for more detailed info. The top view and picture of the "L" type is basically what I am looking for for the C and D body types as well. Just as Neil wrote....it seems Dr. Gregg made a small mistake in the description of the body type, though.

I presume every different body had a separate manual, just like with the Diamond manual I have here. But....I guess those manuals are not very common to say the least.

Alex

[Nick Bullock]

Hi Alex
If the the model is anything like that Morris Commerical then it will be stunning!
Many years ago I looked over a manual collection at the long closed Museum of Army Transport. They held a huge collection of wartime manuals amongst them all a pile of Canadian 'SB' series body manuals. I have searched for years to find some of these and only found a couple of them. Sadly none of the ones I have are for machinery bodies. There may well have been something in one of those manuals should you be able to find a copy. I don't believe that I have even seen a complete lisiting of these manuals though an incomplete list exists in Peter Fords INFOEX Book.
kind regards
nick

[Noel Burgess]

Alex the drawings (2) list all machinery roles and the differances in door arrangement; if you PM your e-mail address I can send you details.
Also I have on my computer 4 images of the interior of a role A C60X - these were saved from a thread on MLU, they were photographs from a book in (i think) a canadian museum taken on 29/06/2007 but I can't find the thread and forgot to note the poster or thread number.

Noel

[cletrac (RIP)]

Here's one in the Western desert. The other two are just because I guess.

[Alex van de Wetering]

@ Nick
The PU was really fun to do, but it's a bit of a shame that I haven't finished any models since than! I really want to get some Canadian projects done now....with the C60X, LAAT, HUP/HUW/HUA and C8 high on the wish list!
Will send you a PM.

@ Noel
Some interior pics of a C60X on our own forum? hmmm...the search function is a real challenge sometimes....with most of the CMP types under the minimum word length it often requires some clever thinking or a good memory who posted it! Will send you my email-address through PM.

@ Dave
Excellent pictures, but sadly not the body I am looking for. I have attached a picture from forum member Serge, which shows the big box I am looking for.

Alex




http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/at...5&d=1260861684

[Colin Alford]

Alex,

Here is a photo of the page from "Design Record, Canadian-Developed Military Vehicles World War II, Volume VI Technical Vehicles" dealing with Machinery Lorry type C.

I believe that the page from the Gregg book that identifies the vehicle as a type L should in fact be a type C.

I have photos of the entire page from the book but will just post the one for now to see if enough detail shows up.

If there is enough detail, please let me know and I will post the other photos.
Colin

[Colin Alford]

On second thought... Here are the other photos of the page.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Colin,

Great stuff and thanks for posting these! This is indeed the kind of info I am looking for, but you can never have enough...or I am just getting spoiled

Indeed it seems that the rear-side picture you posted and the one in Bill Gregg's book are one and the same. This basically confirms that the one in Gregg's book is indeed a Machinery Type C and not an L as described in the book. This also means that the top view drawing, the description that Noel posted and the interior pictures are from one and the same type...which forces me to think about building a Type C! Funny though that most of the restored examples nowadays seem to be of the type without generator doors...with twin side benches and double rear doors.

Is it possible for you to send me some larger scans/bigger pics through email?

3kw, 110 volt DC, Outboard Marine or Lryland generator driven by Briggs & Stratton engine

This sounds like a Chore Horse(?)

Alex

[Grant Bowker]

The chorehorse output was 300W, only 1/10 that given above, as well the later (postwar?) chorehoses were 24V system (and I think the earlier ones were 12V but am not sure). I don't know what Briggs & Stratton engine would have been used for a 3KW output, maybe a nominal 8 horsepower after allowing for losses in generation. I got your PM but have not yet put together an answer.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Alex,

I have these for the Mach "A", as well as for other models.
http://www.sendpix.com/albums/100930...df50764bb9f5a/

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Colin,

Great stuff and thanks for posting these! This is indeed the kind of info I am looking for, but you can never have enough...or I am just getting spoiled

Indeed it seems that the rear-side picture you posted and the one in Bill Gregg's book are one and the same. This basically confirms that the one in Gregg's book is indeed a Machinery Type C and not an L as described in the book. This also means that the top view drawing, the description that Noel posted and the interior pictures are from one and the same type...which forces me to think about building a Type C! Funny though that most of the restored examples nowadays seem to be of the type without generator doors...with twin side benches and double rear doors.

Is it possible for you to send me some larger scans/bigger pics through email?



This sounds like a Chore Horse(?)

Alex

Alex
Why don't you order the correct manual from Grant Bowker..He has all the originals and makes beautiful copies..

Take your pick..

#2A 200+ Pages MACH-E 25-1 Parts and Instruction Manual for Machinery Lorry Equiptment RE 25 KW" Lorry(Used with 975A Diamond "T" 201" WB Chassis).Used in the heavy repair of engineering equipment in the field.

Well illustrated ,including equipment layouts,wiring diagrams,distribution panels,etc. Oct 1943

#2B 400+ Pages MACH-F-1 Parts and Instruction Manual for Machinery Lorry Equiptment Type F Lorry(Used with GM 6X6 C-60X) Well illustrated ,including equipment layouts,wiring diagrams,distribution panels,etc.(Includes Willys MB generator set used with this style body).Used as a field repair shop for vehicles. August 1943

#2C 150 Pages MACH-H Parts and Instruction Manual for Machinery Lorry Equiptment type "H" lorry(Used with 975A Diamond "T" 201" WB Chassis). Used in the field for heavy lathe and screw turning.. Well illustrated ,including equipment layouts,wiring diagrams,distribution panels,etc. July 1943


The #2B 400+ Pages MACH-F-1 ,would be the correct manual for the C-60 X..
Alex

[Alex van de Wetering]

@ Alex
Don't tell me you know all these manuals by heart No, I did send the new Mr. Manual a PM which Grant also mentioned in his post.

@ Clive
Woowee...excellent! If this is the sort of pictures we will find in your upcoming CMP book(series) ....
PM on the way.

@ Grant
Hmm, you are right. I guess I was pretty tired last night.....I mean that separate cabinet in the right rear of the Machinery Type C is much to big for just a Chorse Horse. Ah well....I guess it was just wishfull thinking as measuring up a Chorse Horse would only require a walk to my garage.

Alex

[Alex van de Wetering]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for your replies and info both on the forum and through PM. The new info has triggered me to continue on the model and I am happy I made some progress again over the past few weeks after a long period of silence.

Combining info from different sources has enabled me to answer a lot of the questions I had and get a more detailed view of the details in the Lindsey machinery bodies. But, some questions still remain.....

I am still on the lookout for some good quality pictures/scans of the Type C Machinery body pictures Colin shows in this thread. Anybody able to make some HQ scans from the "Design Record, Canadian-Developed Military Vehicles World War II"???


Something else has also been keeping me busy.....the three C60X Machinery trucks I have inspected here in Holland and the one in Belgium (and the one in Norway as well if I remember correctly) all seems to be of the same body style.....twin rear doors, twin side benches and no other doors or hatches in de sides or rear of the body. However the panels above the side benches seem to be of the non-opening kind in all of them. The question is.....what type are these? They seem closest to a type D, but Gregg's list doesn't mention that these didn't have opening panels above the side benches (like with the Type A and C pictured in this thread), also Clive sent me some pictures of the Type D interior and that does seem to show a locking mechanism for the panels.....so, this means at least the Type D in those pictures has opening panels.(?)

So, maybe there is a difference between early and late vehicles?
All the restored vehicles were modified post war?
The restored trucks had a different role from origin....Stores? Chemical Warfare?


Alex

[Bob Carriere]

.... the best worshop I have seen is with Andre Gibeau..... who is not on the web...... his is fully equipped...... alll electrical cables on wall racks.....rifles in holders..... lathe and all....... almost scary to walk up inside..... like stepping back in time...... and it is dark air force blue.... It's an absolute beauty.

..... it may eventually wind up at the CWM where it will no doubt be displayed stacked up and crowded between other trucks and all doors closed....!!!!!

Bob

[Alex van de Wetering]

the best worshop I have seen

Bob, sounds like Andre's truck made a real impression....worshipping the workshop

Any idea what type Andre's truck is? Any pictures wandering around on the web? I'd love to hear/see more of this specific truck. Andre's truck may well be the only one in the world with the original equipment....most are "empty" nowadays or fitted with post-war equipment.

Alex

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Alex.

Andre is known for the quality and attention to details at almost any cost. Apparently when he got the truck it was far from complete and he sourced the lathe from the USA.....for a full pristine restoration.

Andre has done and donated/sold a number of vehicle to the war museum including one of the elusive Adolph's armored Mercedez now residing at the CWM.

I did take some pictures when we visited his place...... truck was inside a large garage and rather dark..... I will see what I can dig up form the 'puter.
In fact I need to check as to whether it was a C60 with 6 wheels or a full
C60X with 6 wheel drive.

Andre is an avid collector/restorer..... usually attends MLU flea markets and always has nice items for sale at good prices..... and is always willing to help fellow members. Unfortunately, he lives in a rural area of Quebec near the NY border and high speed internet has not and is not about to be installed in his area.

Stay tuned.

Bob

[Bob Carriere]

Grant pointed out to me that if I am convinced that it had 6 wheels / 3 axles then it had to be a F60 and not a 4x4 C60....... really not sure if it might have been a C60x.....

Now I have checked my pictures from that trip at Andre's place and all the pictures where taken outside.... none inside the barn as it was crowed and dark...... stupid what are flashes for.... but mainly we behaved like kids in a candy store.... will just have to visit again.

Bob

[Grant Bowker]

Actually, my claim was that if it was 6x4 it had to be F60H, but if 6x6 almost certainly C60X. My impression was more C60X but I will be happy to go on a tour with you and verify. If it's C60X I want to see which braking system it has and if the early one, figure out better how the linkage and master cylinder worked.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Bob, Grant, thanks for your efforts and comments. I have seen Andre's name come by on the forum quite a few times and sometimes one forgets that not all CMP-nutters are on the World Wide web. If you guys do go and visit Andre in due course, than I would love to hear more about his truck; Bob's description has made me very curious.

Alex.

[Danny Bosma]

Hi Alex,

How far is your project ?

Cheers,

Danny

[Alex van de Wetering]

Hi Danny,

Regarding the scale model..I am currently working on the GM270, bellhousing and gearbox, as well as the axles. Most of the rough cab parts are done and chassis as well. The basic structure of the rear body is there, but nothing done on the interior yet and lots of detail still to be done on chassis and cab.

By the way.....I have talked to a few (former) C60X owners who ensured me the engine was longer...which resulted in the grille needing a spacer....so, I was surprised to find the 270 block to be the same lenght as a 216....if I measured correctly. Also, I understand the C60X uses the stock Chev gearbox.....so, is the bellhousing this much longer leading to the engine being more forward ? and new mounts being used....or is it a bigger radiator and or different fan that leads to a lack of space up front ?


Alex

[Ian Johns]

I just came across this older thread so I thought I would post some photos that I have. They're not great photos but I think at the time it was the best I could do.

[motto]

Whatever engines you measured Alex your conclusion is incorrect. The 270 engine block is definitely longer than the 216 by around an inch and a half. The bell housings are dimensionally similar between Chev and GMC. I am not truly familiar with the C60X but am fairly sure the gearbox was heavier than that used in the rest of the CMP Chev family though still a four speed with 1:1 in top gear. (Not overdrive)
I've switched engines 216>270 and 270>216/235 a number of times and unless the CMP used a different length 216 to everything else cannot explain your findings.

David

[Alex van de Wetering]

Ian,

That's Andre's truck, right? Lovely! Possibly the only (?) retaining orginal tools in the back.

Whatever engines you measured Alex your conclusion is incorrect.

David, you are right. My earlier comments on the block being the same length is indeed incorrect. I found out recently after I rechecked my measurements when the discussion on possible engine swaps for a chev 216 came up in another thread.
So, the 270 block is indeed longer than the 216 block.

Alex

[rob love]

If the markings are correct on the door of the above photo's truck, it leads to a few interesting anomolies. The upper number of 43-30207 would appear to be a CAR (Later called CFR) number using the 43 build date. However the 30207 number falls into the numbering block for the Jeeps. I have never seen a CFR based on a WW2 date, nor a CFR of a non-1/4 ton vehicle in that block back then.

I would have to check on the 22-211 number. Vehicles other than motorcycles, were to be numbered starting at 50-001. Motorcycles would be 2-001. I'm not sure if the RCAF used a different system or numbering block.