correct measurements of rear mk1 armour plate

RichardT10829 · #1 21-11-10, 23:54

anyone ? as per title ? just wondering if there was already a correct pattern for the rear armour plate for a Mk1 ?

Cheers

Richie

Lynn Eades · #2 22-11-10, 04:11

Try these. I can't remember who to credit them to. Someone on this forum.

I Have re read you post, and now see my error. No I dont have it.

RichardT10829 · #3 22-11-10, 08:21

Cheers Lynn. that was done by Rick and myself....mainly Rick. Its the rear most armour plate i am after i have a draw around of one thanks to Martyn but the draw around was mainly to plot holes, i just need the outer measurements

Lynn Eades · #4 22-11-10, 10:05

So the height is the same as the sides, and the width is the same as the division plate, right?

RichardT10829 · #5 22-11-10, 10:25

yes.................BOLLOX hahahahahah where are me donkey ears !

George McKenzie · #6 22-11-10, 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichardT10829

yes.................BOLLOX hahahahahah where are me donkey ears !

Hi Richard I have an oridginal back plate that we are copying to cut more from .Rick Dubryn is getting the drawings done for this .We have cut the sides for the carriers His next cutting will be the front pieces .It's a slow process so start when you are young .

eddy8men · #7 22-11-10, 20:26

hi richie
i've got an original back plate you can have, it'll mean a trip down to manchester though, but you're welcome to it. give me a call on 07970828122 if you want it .

all the best

eddy

RichardT10829 · #8 22-11-10, 23:11

yes please matey is it ok or rusted through ? happy to drive to manchester though

Richie

eddy8men · #9 23-11-10, 19:12

hi richie

it's in good condition just a bit buckled but no corrosion, but just let me make sure we're talking about the same bit of armour, the piece at the back that holds the pioneer tools and tow rope and covers the back axle.is that correct

eddy

RichardT10829 · #10 23-11-10, 20:29

nope i got that. its the rear upper armour.

eddy8men · #11 23-11-10, 22:10

oh well, the offer was there mate.

all the best

eddy

RichardT10829 · #12 23-11-10, 22:43

indeed it was buddy, and it was greatley appreciated matey

martyn · #13 24-11-10, 00:10

When you were down at the weekend why didnt you say as i have that plate sat in the shed rember i stripped a mk1 !!!!!
it has the holes for the wood and angle iron support around the top and the rear bin box etc and has had the deep water brackets welded on as i think it was a mk1 upgrade to mk2.

Lynn Eades · #14 24-11-10, 02:40

I'd say she was a Mortar carrier.

RichardT10829 · #15 24-11-10, 08:54

totally forgot Martyn.... thought they had all gone to be fair.

shaun · #16 24-11-10, 09:13

That one was a scout that went through an upgade to MK 2 spec. Martyn any sign of my speedo drive ?

Lynn Eades · #17 24-11-10, 10:06

Please explain how you know that?

RichardT10829 · #18 24-11-10, 10:12

i could be wrong but the air ducting seems to be incorrect to be a scout carrier ?

shaun · #19 24-11-10, 17:51

Hi Lynn, it was of the old hulls i sold Martyn a couple of years back. you could see where all the fixings had been when it was a scout. there had been some major upgrades done to the vehicle to bring it up to Universal spec. i have the "T" number written down some where. i hope that helps. TTFN

Lynn Eades · #20 24-11-10, 21:40

In the photos, I see the blanking of the battery box wiring holes, and the rear panel, and side panel bren mount holes, which are factory blanked by riveting. This was a standard production method. This is why I say she was a mortar carrier. I would doubt that any Scouts were factory converted to MkII Universals. Scout production finished about 1938, and the first MkII Universals were produced in 1942. By this time the Scouts were lost at Dunkirk, or had gone to North Africa. Aside from that I can only think of one difinative Scout feature that MIGHT have survived in a factory rebuild. That would be the bolt holes for the air ducts, which on the Scout are curved, and on a Universal, are straight.
I believe that all other Scout features would have disapeared.
I cannot see a factory halting its systemised. production to pull one old Scout to bits to rebuild it as a Universal MkII. ( I Imagine also that had this been done, then it would have been renumbered)
Would they have stripped the carrier to the point of removing and replacing the gunners front plate, the hull division plate, The rear plate (that started this thread) Which in the photo looks like a standard factoy Universal installation. the side armour on the left side. etc. etc. etc.
One would have to consider the order in which parts were riveted together, and then the difficulty of doing some of those operations in a different order.
I am not trying to poke you in the eye Shaun. I am saying (from my limited knowledge) that it is highly unlikely, and that because you were un aware of what the differences between a standard Universal carrier, and a Mortar carrier are, that this was the conclusion that you arrived at.

Pictures are Philip Hastings Scout hull, and one of the Air ducts common only to Brens, and Scouts. the last picture shows a Universal carrier air duct arrangement. Note in the Scout there is no armour plate at the outer upper corners, that is in the universals.

martyn · #21 25-11-10, 22:39

I can tell you all that that carrier was a mk1 all the running gear was marked 1941 and had canadian part numbers on them.
from that iam guessing its not a scout and i have found a couple more pickys of the bulkhead and air boxes if that helps anyone work out what she was?

Lynn Eades · #22 25-11-10, 23:13

As you said. A MkI Universal. I can't see clearly enough, the back plate. Is it the same as this picture? This is a Mortar carrier hull. Note the rivets closing the holes where the battery box bolts on, The rivets filling the gun mounts holes, as well as the smoke discharger bkt, and the holes for the rubber rest angle iron along the side, and back.

I think this picture is the Overloon carrier. there is a thread on MLU about it.

kevin powles · #23 25-11-10, 23:34

Hi, One clue to the carriers original stowage design could be this : on the rear plate there are two holes drilled on a Mk1 carrier for mounting the bracket for the boys anti tank gun stock.

On a standard stowage carrier with bracket missing, there will be two holes.

On a mortar carrier one hole will be factory rivetted shut.

On a tank hunter carrier both will be factory rivetted shut.

On a scout carrier i cannot comment.

hope this helps.

RichardT10829 · #24 26-11-10, 00:12

I know that the rivet spacing along the side armour on the bren and the scout is different to the universals and they are positioned slightly different. plus there is the different front idlers. but mainly as i initially stated and Lynn kindly posted a photo of, the ducting is different too.

kevin powles · #25 26-11-10, 00:29

I took these photo's of the front armour which came off martyns upgraded Mk1 carrier, perhaps it provides some clues?.

kev.

shaun · #26 26-11-10, 01:04

blimy some of you guys have got more photos of my old carriers than i have ! ha ha ha - Lynn you are right i was thinking of the wrong hull. i will now use the eye with out the finger in to find the details on that hull (no harm done Lynn) so yes Richard the measuerments will be correct for your mk 1. just out of interest, in the late 80'-early 90's i recovered 11 carriers from a farmers scrap pile 10 miles from my house. There was not the internet in those days and info was scares. one day i will post the photos i have of the recovery and 40ft trailer loads of carrier remains. some very early carriers were in the heap as well as a MMG carrier with all the stowage bkts.
Does that clear the water at all ? TTFN

Lynn Eades · #27 26-11-10, 04:58

I understand exactly what you are saying. I have made a lot of mistakes with my Armoured O.P. because the only pictures I could find were in Chamberlain and Ellis's book, and those photos were about 2inches long. The internet has changed this game dramatically.
I have been lucky enough to see two Brens (of 6) in N.Z. which have survived as well as Phillips Scout which is a project, but awfully good.
I have previously mentioned that we (N.Z.) had both British and Canadian Universals, We copied the Australian LP2/2a., I have been to Australia and seen their LP1, and lastly I have the poor remains of two N.Z. LP1's (which apart from the hydraulic brakes,(and a few other things) is a copy of the British Carrier Bren, No2 Mk1built in 1938.
Unfortunately I have not eyeballed a T16, or a MkII Universal, as N.Z. had neither.
I look forward to the photos.

RichardT10829 · #28 26-11-10, 10:48

Kevin i beleive that carrier is not Martyns but a chap called Ben from here who bought it off Shaun at a very reasonable price !....unless i have also got them muddled up...I have stacks of photo's of that particular carrier

could be one of the many that Shaun had lying about up Thetford before the move twas like a carrier ghost town

Gee we are a right bunch of anoraks hahahahaha I LOVE IT !

Lynn Eades · #29 26-11-10, 11:32

That blue front armour is just standard Universal, as far as I can see.
What is "upgraded" about it?

RichardT10829 · #30 26-11-10, 12:57

i think he refers to where the squares had been welded on for deep water wading other than that i dont know.

anyways back to my initial post took your advice and copied the center plate measurements and the height of the sides then double checked this on the tub and its as it should be.....even made a crappy little drawing on "paint" so here you go i have a paper pattern with all the Mk1 drill holes in....when i manage to create it on a dxf or pdf format file i will post it up for the collection that we have already