Ford V8 exhaust pipes for '42 CMP

[david moore]

Does anyone know which, if any, of the several different variants of exhaust piping (crossover and the "Y" ended pipe) offered by Mac's Auto or Dennis Carpenter Parts would fit my 1942 engine? They don't know about CMP's of course so its no use asking them which version is correct. I'm not even sure if the CMP's matched the US pick-ups or trucks in this regard?

[Howard]

I have been meaning to post the same question for a while now.
I imagine the exhaust on a LH drive vehicle would go down the RH side of the engine??
Watching this post with interest.
H

[cletrac (RIP)]

Here's some pics of an original setup.

[chris vickery]

David, a flathead block is a flathead block. The only differences I ever noticed was with regard to universal carriers as they used a different manifold which exited near the end. IIRC, trucks and cars were a center collector on the manifolds.
As long as you don't need to be 100% authentic on your resto, I would suggest any crossover that fits will work followed by some custom exhaust work.
On my 12 cab Ford I mad my own crossover pipe for about $5 and some time.

[Grant Bowker]

The information below is taken from S.E.-39-42 issued January 1942 (the parts catalogue that covers the whole range of Ford CMPs).

In general, similar parts were used across the whole range of CMP Fords. The F8 shows different part numbers from most of the other CMP Fords, both for the larger parts of the exhaust system and smaller ones such as brackets. The other Ford that is an exception is the F60H.

For the F8
*C011DF-5230-B Muffler assembly
*C011DF-5245-B later *C011DF-5245-C later *C011DF-5245-D Pipe muffler inlet
*C011D-5245-C later *C011D-5245-D Pipe muffler inlet
*C011DF-5255-A later -*C011DF-5255-B Pipe muffler outlet

There is also a
*C011D-5256 "Kit-muffler conversion. used to replace *C011DF-5255-A in field". Unfortunately there is no detail about what was in the kit.

All of the above part numbers have the preceding * in the list that "indicates that the part is peculiar to Canadian military pattern vehicles."

[david moore]

Thanks for info so far.... but... the pics from Cletrac show, I think, that the crossover and "Y" are different than for civvy vehicles. Didn't the CMP's have a deeper sump/oil pan? Thus the crossover goes down deeper and the "Y" has a wider angle than those pictured in the various old Ford catalogues. So, all flat heads the same? Maybe not?

The codes in the military parts lists e.g CO11 etc. aren't matched in the civvy catalogues. There, the prefixes are quite different.

Another twist - aren't the CMP manifolds different than the civvy ones?

I wouldn't know where to start making my own pipes - but if anyone out there provides this service I'm open to quotes!

Still need help!!

[Grant Bowker]

From the S.E.-39-42 parts catalogue, the C011DF was the model for the F8.

From the Canadian Ford and Mercury Chassis Catalogue (1939-1944 Passenger Car, Truck and Bus) a part number of C016TF-2265A breaks down as:
C = Canadian design
0 = designed for 1940 model year (just the last digit of the year)
1 = 85 HP engine (2 = 60HP, 9 = 95HP)
6 = 176" wheelbase (1 = 101", 8 = 158", 4 = 194", not specified for 134") (interesting that CMPs were standard Ford wheelbases)
T = truck (A= passenger, B = bus, C= commercial, D= 3/4 ton, T = regular truck, U = dump, V = drop frame, W = C.O.E., Y = 1 ton)
F = right hand drive
2265 Basic part number and group (in this case the group is 2006-2449 brakes (service) and the part number is for "pipe, master cylinder to rear hose assembly)
A, B, C etc redesigned or changed part within the model year

This parts numbering system is only claimed to be valid 1938-1944.

On this system a F8 or C011DF should be a Canadian designed, 1940 model, 101" wheelbase, 3/4 ton capacity, right hand drive. It almost makes sense..... Except I thought all Ford CMPs were 95 HP and the 3/4 ton part and that might be the difference between 3/4 ton total capacity (including fuel, occupants, cargo, spare parts (anything not actually part of the truck), like the modern phrase "may be reduced by weight of occupants and optional equipment") and 8cwt useful load after allowing for driver, helper, fuel and other fluids, on vehicle kit etc.

I didn't see the C011DF prefix for the F8 in the exhaust section of the chassis parts catalogue.

[chris vickery]

Further to my last post David, you might find that your local muffler shop would be willing to fab you up what you require....
I have always found them to be quite reasonable on stuff like this as it takes the guys away from the usual day to day regularity...

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by david moore

Thanks for info so far....but...
the pics from Cletrac show, I think, that the crossover and "Y" are different than for civvy vehicles. Didn't the CMP's have a deeper sump/oil pan? Thus the crossover goes down deeper and the "Y" has a wider angle than those pictured in the various old Ford catalogues. So, all flat heads the same? Maybe not?

The codes in the military parts lists e.g CO11 etc. aren't matched in the civvy catalogues. There, the prefixes are quite different.

Another twist - aren't the CMP manifolds different than the civvy ones?

I wouldn't know where to start making my own pipes - but if anyone out there provides this service I'm open to quotes!

Still need help!!

Dave
The French used the Ford flat head until the '80's and then all the parts went to auction..There are tons of new old stock parts around..Get what ever you want from Red's..

http://www.reds-headers.com/html/flathead_eng.html

Everyone should book mark this page ..It is a great source of information..
Even the Great Guru could learn a thing or too on his beloved Ford Blitz..
(Keith ..pay attention..)

http://www.reds-headers.com/html/engine_talk.html

[John Mackie]

A word of warning, there are 2 different LH manifolds for this era Fords. they look the same but the exhaust outlets are in slightly different positions ( about 1 1/2 )as I found out when fitting the engine to my carrier.
I have been studyng Willanthey's F60L exhaust and it looks different to the truck type. It is tucked in very close to the sump in order to clear the front diff.
John

[Phil Waterman]

Hi

As a last resort for making a difficult to fit exhaust pipe or close tolerance header. Remember seeing and old hot rod trick of using the steel flex exhaust, noting unusual but the neat part of the trick was once the pipe was formed to the proper position the guy ran a welding bead down the side of the pipe. In this way the pipe was locked to the necessary shape and could be removed to be copied with a pipe bender.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

Dan's Muffler & Brake Shop

7867 Victoria, Metcalfe, ON K0A 2P0

613-821-2123

Highly recommended by the Hot Rodders for fabricating system from scratch and not that far from you.

Good luck and keep us posted of your experience if you contact Dan.

Bob C.

[T Creighton]

Hello David,
Here's a picture that may help.
Unfortunately it is only one dimensional but I tipped it over to try to give you an idea how it looks.
Note that the outlets of the manifolds are on an angle so the pipes clear the chassis rails.
It is from a book that Lynn Eades loaned me to read last night.
If you need a larger pic I can email it to you.
Cheers,
Terry

[Robin Craig]

David,

Gerry Foster of Foster Repair on Station Road Gananoque, whom you have met builds custom exhaust from patterns or pictures.

He did one for the Land Rover 101 GS we have using the old one as a pattern and the muffler from our stock of spares.

Absolute exact copy at a fraction of the price of OEM and comes with warranty.

Robin

[david moore]

Once again, thanks for great input.

Robin - yours is the best solution for me, I think. If I took my truck with exhaust system all in place, though close to failing, into his shop and left it with him he should be in a good position to replicate? Once I get a quote, if others want systems to match, speak up! Good for Cab 11/12 - not sure if Cab 13 is the same. Shipping would obviously be an issue outside of Ontario.

I did contact Red's Headers in California. They dont have any NOS and the only system they have for right hand drive is a multi-pipe header as opposed to a cast manifold - that would be fine except that it protrudes quite a lot from the block and I'm sure it would foul the footwell walls in the cab 11/12.

I'm pretty sure that the deep sump of the CMP V8 is special and that the civvy systems out of Mac's etc. would not work (wrong cross-over, wrong V-joint angle). Plus the different manifold detail. I'm surprised that this hasn't come up as an issue before now. Was the manifold changed for the CMP just to clear the tight space in the leg wells?

Thanks again all, and the drawings/photos.

Will keep you posted.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Remember seeing and old hot rod trick of using the steel flex exhaust, noting unusual but the neat part of the trick was once the pipe was formed to the proper position the guy ran a welding bead down the side of the pipe.

Phil..
Us poor engine rats used flex pipe for everything from the manifold back..
And you didn't need to weld dickie doo...Once in place and tight the exhaust heat did the rest..you couldn't bend it to save your soul after it heated up..It was galvanized and the zinc oxide did the welding for you..
I remember having a rear hanger let go while I was performing in my '51 Ford for the ladies out side of high school and the whole muffler..rear flex pipe came stung out like a coiled wire fence when I ran over it and the weight of the muffler(Glasspack) and the spinning rear rubber did the rest..I had 200 yards of flex wire hanging off my left exhaust manifold..
I was the laughing stock of all the young ladies I was trying to impress..
But you are right..it was great stuff.

[Jim Price]

David,
I had the same dilemma when restoring my 1940 F8. I purchased a right side exhaust pipe from MAC's and my welder made some 11 cuts and 8 welds resulting in the attached. It took a number of fittings before it was finished! Works fine though!

Good luck!

Regards,
Jim Price

[david moore]

Jim, Thanks for your confirmation that this is a bit of a problem! When you say "right side" - do you mean the single cross over tube? Do you recall the Mac's code for the part you purchased? Did your guy fabricate the "Y" tube from scratch? How did you get the second flange?
Lots of questions but I'm going to have to go through the same performance one way or another!
I'll hopefully be down in Tucson for March - shame you didn't have a second set made and I could have brought it back in the car! No UPS cross border charge or Canadian 13% tax either!
Cheers
David

[Robin Craig]

Sorry for tardy reply David, have been in Quebec all week.

Yes drag it to Gerry's shop by prior arrangement and he will do you proud.

Robin

[Jim Price]

David,
My welder fabricated the pipe using the following Mac's parts: 78-5267, Cross-Over Pipe, and 91A-5245, Engine to Muffler Pipe. The second flange came from the cross-over pipe. Have attached another photo showing the acute welds needed to make the pipe fit the very crampted engine compartment.

I live about 100 miles north of Tucson; perhaps we could get together when you're in Tucson.

Regards,
Jim

[david moore]

Jim
Thanks for info and pictures. I will probably buy in the parts and then get my local guy (as per Robin Craig) to do the chopping/welding/fitting. Mac's no longer seem to have these pipes in stock - but Early Ford Parts of Schenectady NY do - and I can pick up from there.

More questions though.....I understood that the standard US vehicles(left hand drive, as per Mac's parts) had the main manifold to muffler pipe going down the right hand side of the vehicle - opposite to the CMP. The illustrations in the Mac's manuals show it that way too - presumably this is all because the brake master cylinder is on the left hand side on the US vehicles?So....did your 91A-5245 pipe fit the left hand manifold or did the flange have to be cut off and remounted on the opposite hand so to speak? Maybe you went down the right hand side and moved the master cylinder?

Finally, did you get muffler 91A-5230?

Makes you realize how dumb the Brit War Office was to insist on right hand drive! All this reworking must have cost a lot of valuable time and money.

Cheers
David

[Phil Waterman]

Originally Posted by david moore

Jim
Thanks ....

Makes you realize how dumb the Brit War Office was to insist on right hand drive! All this reworking must have cost a lot of valuable time and money.

Cheers
David

Hi David

I have often pondered the reason for requiring that all the Trucks the Brit War Office ordered from Canada should be right hand drive. Wonder if they really even thought about the fact that Canada drove on the right. At that point time wasn't Canada the only major Commonwealth Nation that did drive on the right.

Not sure once the production got started the cost penalties for right vs left and side really added up to much. Both Ford and Canada had export models which were right hand drive.

Your comment though does raise and interesting line of though. Why were CMPs built the way they were. Think about the differences:

1. Right Hand Drive
2. Semi cab over engine design
3. Generally two axle instead of three
4. Reverse Slope Windscreen
5. Driving compartments designed for people 5'5" and 110 lbs

[Jim Price]

David,
We cut the pipes to fit the left side. There was too much to be done to make it fit the right side, especially with the master cylinder where it was. Did it up just like it was originally done! Lots of work! Lots of fitting!

If I recall correctly I did get the 91A-5230, Muffler. I did not buy the Ford Script one, though. Had already put more money than I had ever dreamed of in the vehicle at that point!

A tip, when installing the engine (which was an American Ford flat head), I installed a pair of regular manifolds only to find that there was not enough room to install the exhaust pipes. Found and installed a set of original, low profile manifolds and all was right.

Regards,
Jim