Pre-war 15cwt trucks

[servicepub (RIP)]

MilArt presents an in-depth look at pre-war 15-cwt trucks. Presented in two parts these articles document the pre-war trucks that ultimately resulted in the Canadian Military Pattern.

http://servicepub.wordpress.com/2013...n-army-part-1/

[servicepub (RIP)]

Part 2 is now available at http://servicepub.wordpress.com/2013...n-army-part-2/

Clive

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Excellent stuff, Clive!

Good to see David Hayward's work isn't going to waste.

Hanno

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Clive

Just read the both parts before logging on to MLU today, very interesting reads pulling together a lot of information and helps figure out the jigsaw puzzle that is the history of CMP.

Thanks for the time and effort to put this information together.

Cheers Phil

[servicepub (RIP)]

Hanno and Phil,
Thank you. I have now located the pre-war (1938-1939) files for the 30cwt and hope to unravel that story also.
C

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Clive

Have you come across the why of the distance from steering wheel to front wheels. Or the semi cab over engine compartment of the CMP. I've heard stories but never seen it tracked back to an original source.

Look forward to reading the next installments.

Cheers Phil

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Have you come across the why of the distance from steering wheel to front wheels. Or the semi cab over engine compartment of the CMP. I've heard stories but never seen it tracked back to an original source.

Phil,

As far as I know this was dictated by the British requirements / specifications to maximise loading space for the avialable chassis lenght.

I'll see if I can find a source stating this, but I think Clive is closer to the contemporary source documents.

Hanno

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Hanno

I was told once that one of the requirements was that center of the plain of the steering wheel was to be 13" behind the center of the front axle and that there was a very particular reason for this distance. Something to do with if the wheel is any further ahead (as in a true cab forward) that the driver will not have the proper feel of the vehicle as it turns.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

HI Clive

You leave us hanging by the skin of our teeth.... did the butler do it on not???


So in late October 1939..... the war has just started and a small contract for 50 more trucks from Ford is signed then amended for colour.... and said trucks did not reach the Canadian Army until early 1940.......

...but in previous readings, some from David Hayward, ( God I miss him at times likes this) actual production started on the Chev cab 11 late in March 1940 but all models actually counted/dated as April production...... and again thanks to David, who told me that the numbers of my cab 11 was on the line late May 1940...... and already had the new air vents incorporated in the assembly.....as on going improvements....and also has a Ford woven grill which may or may not have come from the factory... gives it more class!!! but no roof hatch.

They must have been burning the midnigth oil between early 1940 and April 1940.

Waiting impatiently for the next episodes and more details ....... such as shortage of front and rear axles for Fords..... and the very early dates for the cab 13 and how it fits with HUP "pilot" which is part cab 13 before the 13 were actually released.

Bob C

PS....Obviously the Senate was not involved and besides Duffy would not have fitted in a cab 11 anyways.

[servicepub (RIP)]

The butler is innocent until proven guilty.

The challenge with part 3 is that the files dealing with the development and DND acceptance of what became the cab 11 are not readily found. With the declaration of war there was an obvious need for additional MT, however, the Brits had indicated that they didn't need anything from Canada and that they were best suited to equip the Empire. Let's not forget that Britain didn't become a 'nation of merchants' by buying goods overseas. This attitude only changed post-Dunquerque.

The early-war files that I do have clearly indicate that there was still a preference, from both manufacturers, to produce modified commercial pattern (MCP) vehicles to meet the relatively small Canadian demand of a few thousand vehicles.

By end of 1939 the two manufacturers were still paying lip-service to the concept of integration of design and standardization of parts. When (read - 'if') the relevant files are uncovered we may find that the cab 11 design was based more on a combination of the slavish acceptance of the 13 inch rule imposed by the British War Office and whatever parts/tools were available to Ford and GM.

I shall continue researching and, if not the butler, then perhaps the guilty party is Col Bloggins, in the study, with a candelabra.

Clive

[servicepub (RIP)]

I pulled this image off the old Maple Leaf Up site from years ago. Does anyone have a hi-res version of this? Does anyone know where it originated?

Clive

[Bob Carriere]

Looks British to me Clive..... to brutal a set up for North America.

Would make a nice dune buggy!!!!

Cheers

[servicepub (RIP)]

I agree. Although Jiffy identifies it as an early Ford prototype I disagree. Insofar as the body is concerned, bot Ford and GM obtained their bodies from the same manufacturer, and Ford continued these features the following year, this body is missing some features of that body.
I also don't like the placement of the headlights. too bad we can't make out if it is left- or right-hand drive.
Clive

[Bob Carriere]

vvvv....blah using a new wireless key board...and it's weird....

Headlights are old style but not but not CMP bucket style. They pretty wellhave to be mounted on the engine cover as the fenders are motorcycle style.

If the underside is correct there is no room for a T-case or a driven front axle..... frame seems very thin....... front bumper has a civilian spring type look with tow hooks mounted on top like modern 4x4....

Wheel bolt pattern look similar...8 bolts to a CMP..... hood has a radiator cap similar to later Fords.

I can"t beleive someone would drive this truck with no side support on the seat or any restraining straps for the driver-passenger.

Strange drop side box...... when open it will hit or sit on the rear fenders at 90 degrees....

...Would someone be intrerested in a new Logitech French keyboard ......cheap.

Cheers

[Dianaa]

When you turn the image to negative it does seem that the column is behind everything else.

At least the hand brake is to the right of the gear stick so I would hesitate its LHD.

[Tony Smith]

There is a shadow of an external rear vision mirror on the left hand side (but no mirror on the right side), so I would say it's LHD. All Ford trucks of the 30's and 40's had the handbrake lever mounted to the right side of the gearbox. Engine cowl looks too short to house a straight six and radiator.

[servicepub (RIP)]

My research has led me to understand the 1937 and 1939 purchases (delivered in 1938 by GM and 1940 by Ford respectively) but I have not yet uncovered a photo of the single pilot produced, in 1937, by Ford.
I wonder if this is it?

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

I've seen this photo before in a higher resolution print, page 8 of Greggs Blueprint for Victory. From the background and staging of the photo I would say Ford archive. Bill had a lot of these photos at one time.

Also I have seen and printed hi-res versions of the Ford Pat 11 15CWT which was sitting with the same background. I have one version of the Pat 11 that I think Alex Giersch sent me 1500X985 Pixel versions, but I'm pretty sure I have seen an even high-res version will keep looking.

Cheers Phil

[Stew Robertson]

Many years ago when I was on a wee trip to Milton with Bill we found that same truck with a rear half track arrangement but no rear box or platform but was powered with a flattie
Not knowing if it was military or not and a lot of talk later we left it there to do some homework on ID ing what it was. we found no real information about it but went back a month or so later to see if we could acquire it but it was to late it had been squished!
After doing quite a bit of research later Bill had come to the conclusion that it was an early proto type for the military but That is the best that I can remember Weather there was any of that information went to Shilo or not I do not know

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Stew Robertson

Many years ago when I was on a wee trip to Milton with Bill we found that same truck with a rear half track arrangement but no rear box or platform but was powered with a flattie
Not knowing if it was military or not and a lot of talk later we left it there to do some homework on ID ing what it was. we found no real information about it but went back a month or so later to see if we could acquire it but it was to late it had been squished!
After doing quite a bit of research later Bill had come to the conclusion that it was an early proto type for the military but That is the best that I can remember Weather there was any of that information went to Shilo or not I do not know

Any photos?

[Robert Bergeron]

Clive,

Very well written and very interesting articles . Keep writing.

It is shocking and amazing that by the war's first year all we had were a mere 1000 vehicules in our inventory. Then it should be said that we had a mere 5000 Permanent Force soldiers in the inter-war years.

It is again amazing how GM and Ford stepped up to the plate by producing almost 800,000 trucks by war's end !

Cheers.

Robert

[Stew Robertson]

Originally Posted by Stew Robertson View Post
Many years ago when I was on a wee trip to Milton with Bill we found that same truck with a rear half track arrangement but no rear box or platform but was powered with a flattie
Not knowing if it was military or not and a lot of talk later we left it there to do some homework on ID ing what it was. we found no real information about it but went back a month or so later to see if we could acquire it but it was to late it had been squished!
After doing quite a bit of research later Bill had come to the conclusion that it was an early proto type for the military but That is the best that I can remember Weather there was any of that information went to Shilo or not I do not know

Any photos?

Sorry that was before cameras

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Stew Robertson

Sorry that was before cameras

Good God Stew....how old are you?

From Wikopedia:

The first permanent photograph of a camera image was made in 1826 by Joseph Nicéphore Niépce using a sliding wooden box camera made by Charles and Vincent Chevalier in Paris.

Ribbing aside, I know what you mean about camera back then and now. Seemed like only half the photos I paid for actually worked, and I seemed to have a talent for ruining just about any camera I got. But the digital cameras have cured all that. There is only the cost of the batteries, and I can proof any photos before emailing them off to Walmart to have them printed.