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  #1  
Old 18-01-15, 03:57
GJG GJG is offline
1951 M-38CDN
 
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Default M-38 CDN (history)

Based on the CJ-3A, the M38 used a 24 volt (2 batteries) waterproof electrical system standardized for post-war military vehicles. The M38 was built by Willys-Overland from Sept. 1950 to July 1952 (see below for production by Ford Canada). The Army’s new requirements, including a higher weight capacity, added many pounds to the vehicle and the old Willys 60 HP flat head engine did not provide adequate power and required a 5.38 axle ratio (vs MB's 4.88) . At the end of 1952, the need of a more powerful engine led to the M38A1 with rounded fenders and high hood to accommodate the F-head engine (72 HP at 6.9/1 compression or 75 HP at 7.5/1, also used in the 1953 CJ-3B and by 1955, in the CJ-5 which retained the M38A1 battery cover on passenger side cowl and snorkel cut-out up to 1965).

During the Korean War (25 June 1950 – 27 July 1953), all the M38 produced by Willys, Toledo (Ohio), were going to the U.S. army (~ 45500); Willys was simultaneously producing a large number of civilians Jeep. On 29 September 1951, Willys-Overland announced an agreement with the Canadian Government and Ford Motor Company of Canada for production of military Jeeps (M38 CDN) in Windsor, Canada, Willys-Overland supplying parts. For early line assembly start up, Ford assembled about fifty M38 CDN at the end of 1951 from parts already available at Willys and a total of 2135 by the end of November 1952. After the introduction of the M38A1, Willys made 6800 additional M38 for exportation, up to 1955.

There is a lot of speculation on Internet about the M38 CDN. Here are some facts:

1- FORD OF CANADA HERITAGE: "Exclusive & Exciting Cars & Trucks Built by Ford of Canada"
"Even after the war, Ford of Canada filled a large order of military Jeeps. Production took place in late 1951 through 1955. Built under license from Willys, they were known as M-38 Ford trucks. During 1952, a total of 2438 were made. (2135 M38 + 303 M38A1 CDN; see Brian note below)
In 1953 Willys-Overland was purchased by Kaiser. Also that year some styling changes were made. The new Jeeps looked a bit more rounded, and the model designation was changed to M-38-A1. Of interest in those pre Auto Pact days was the fact that these postwar Canadian-made Jeep were shipped to the United States, for the American military forces.
"

2- Upon receipt, the Canadian Army stamped a CAR number on top of left front frame rail near front bumper (Canadian Army Registration): 51–30xxx but mostly 52-3xxxx.

3- Gaétan J. Gagnon owns a M38 CDN correctly stamped with CAR 51-30035, documented since 1967 (it could not have been tampered with) and mostly stock. So at least 35 were made in 1951 and less than 127 since this is the smallest CAR number known of M38 CDN made in 1952. Some M38 reported with stenciled 51-33xxx are from USAF Radar bases in Canada (during cold war with USSR). The agreement of 29 sept. 1951 was made because Willys could not assemble more than those sold to the US Army who needed them and Willys could certainly not make 3000 more at the end of 1951.

4- Article often cited on Internet as reference (good but incomplete, see other facts): Extract from an article by Robert Grieve published in the OMVA CMP Magazine Issue No. 13, May 1996: Some items to note about Canadian M38 production:
All Canadian M38's were assembled by Ford Motor Company of Canada in Windsor, Ontario, from February to November 1952. The average cost per M38 was $2600 (the first contract of 840 vehicles cost $2807 per vehicle). All vehicles where shipped from Windsor to Hagersville, Ontario to be inspected and put into military service. The last vehicle produced by Ford was serial number F102135 and it was delivered on 27 November 1952 (as researched at Ford by Peter Simundson).
Winches where installed and delivered on a separate purchase order program by Ramsey Winch Co.
All M38's were equipped with a convoy lamp installed as a field modification that was done upon receipt by RCEME [Royal Canadian Electrical and Mechanical Engineers].
Vehicles shipped by rail transport had eight tie downs installed on the frame. Vehicles shipped overseas to Norway or Cyprus had eight tie downs on the frame and also has hold down rings installed to the four spring shackle plates.

5- From Brian Asbury 2015-01-21: I have seen a photocopy of a Month-End Serial Number Report for Ford Motor Company of Canada, Limited. The section titled "1952 - - M38 Production - (Month-end)" has month-end serial numbers: January F-100100. February F-100234. March F-100399. April F-100682. May F-100997. June F-101247. July F-101632. August F-101764. September F-101935. October F-102051. November F-102135 - End of M38-11/27/52. F-200041 - M38A1 - 11/28/52. For December there are handwritten notes: 750 Jobs - Built Dec. 1952 and Jan. 1953. See Jan. 1953 Records. Last 224 Jobs with short dipstick."
I think that the 2438 vehicles made in 1952 were not all "M38 Ford trucks". There were only 2135 M38's made from January to November 1952 (none in December). I believe that the "2438" total in the article lumps in 303 M38A1's that would have been made in Nov. and Dec. 1952 with the balance of the Dec+Jan published total of 750, being made in January 1953.

by Gaétan J. Gagnon
Editing: (#5 fact added 8 February 2015; small corrections and clarification of fact #3, 30 April 2018; small update 6 May 2018, qty 6800 for export added 26 August 2018)

Last edited by GJG; 26-08-18 at 22:34. Reason: Correction on #5 fact date.
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  #2  
Old 19-01-15, 22:30
BCA BCA is offline
Brian Asbury
 
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Default M38CDN information

Hello Gaetan,
Thanks for the posting. This will be a good start to discussing the M38CDN. There are some comments I will have but need to get things in order before posting. .... Brian
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  #3  
Old 22-01-15, 00:10
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Brian Asbury
 
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Default Ford M38CDN Production

I have seen a photocopy of a Month-End Serial Number Report for Ford Motor Company of Canada, Limited. The section titled "1952 - - M-38 Production - (Month-end)" has month-end serial numbers: January F-100100. February F-100234. March F-100399. April F-100682. May F-100997. June F-101247. July F-101632. August F-101764. September F-101935. October F-102051. November F-102135 - End of M38-11/27/52. F-200041 - M38A1 - 11/28/52. For December there are handwritten notes: 750 Jobs - Built Dec. 1952 and Jan. 1953. See Jan. 1953 Records. Last 224 Jobs with short dipstick."
So it appears that the last M38, serial F-102135 was produced on 11/27/52. However the data plate would show the "Delivered Date" not date of production.
For instance, dealing with the first 100 produced by January month-end: I have delivered dates for 14 M38CDN below F-100100 (produced by January month-end): the earliest delivered date is February 4, 1952 and the latest was February 27. The delayed dates of delivery were probably due to final touches to bring the jeep up to standard or until the inspector had time to examine it.
So my conclusion: Ford knew exactly how many M38's were made each month, each had a serial number but the stamped "delivered date" was delayed, often up to a month or more.
Unfortunately the procedure of stamping the CFR number on the left front frame does not seem to have been implemented until about 300 or so were made. As a result confirmed CFR's for the first 100 M38CDN's are very rare. Only a surviving stencil or old paperwork can confirm a CFR for very early M38CDN's.
Any help is appreciated from M38CDN owners: Ford serial #, delivered date, inspectors marking, contract number (639 vs 742), and CFR # would help me clarify the M38CDN story. Your information is confidential with me unless you are willing to share publically, but it will help me fill in the information gaps and broaden the story.
Another discussion all together is the Canadian-used Willys M38: typically 10-51 delivery date, serial numbers 37xxx to 38xxx, usually with very high CFR's : 52-33xxxx. .......... Brian
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  #4  
Old 22-01-15, 00:46
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Brian Asbury
 
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Default 1952 Ford Production

GJG/Gaetan,
Ah, facts are hard to come by: I believe there is an innocent mistake in the following article that you quoted.
1- On FORD OF CANADA HERITAGE site:
"Even after the war, Ford of Canada filled a large order of military Jeeps. Production took place in late 1951 through 1955. Built under license from Willys, they were known as M-38 Ford trucks. During 1952, a total of 2438 were made.
From: "Exclusive & Exciting Cars & Trucks Built by Ford of Canada"

I think that the 2438 vehicles made in 1952 were not all "M-38 Ford trucks". There were only 2135 M38's made from January to November 1952 (none in December). I believe that the "2438" total in the article lumps in 303 M38A1's that would have been made in Nov. and Dec. 1952 with the balance of the Dec+Jan published total of 750, being made in January 1953.
Just a bit of nit-picking to clarify a published "fact" that easily gets repeated.
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  #5  
Old 24-01-15, 05:14
GJG GJG is offline
1951 M-38CDN
 
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Default M-38 CDN made in 1951

Hi Brian. My remark about the unknown exact number of jeep is for 1951. At least 35 were received in 1951 by the Canadian Army since mine is stamped with that number. The back plate for the data plates has 4 holes. My dash had only 3 holes and none was threaded so it seems that there was never any data plates on that jeep. I know it because I had to drill 1 hole to add reproduction data plates.
Thanks for explaining the production difference between Ford Canada and Robert Grieve.
Below, the photo of the CAR number 51-30035 and of my M-38 CDN (1976 frame-up restauration, still almost stock excepted for 12 V conversion, the addition of the Ramsey winch, double PTO and Warn overdrive).
Gaétan Gagnon
Attached Thumbnails
W2011-08-11WillysCAR#1.jpg   W2014-10-03#3Maison.jpg  

Last edited by GJG; 25-01-15 at 05:38.
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  #6  
Old 29-01-15, 19:33
BCA BCA is offline
Brian Asbury
 
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Default M38 data plates

Gaetan, It is interesting that you only found 3 mounting holes for the master plate that normally holds the brass dash plates. Perhaps one of the sheet metal screws was broken-off in the hole?
Your CFR number 51-30035 strongly leads me to believe that you have a Willys Overland M38 that was delivered about or after October 1951 (10-51). I have information on at least 6 Willys Overland M38's that were delivered to the Canada. While my information is incomplete, in general:
1. Their serial numbers ranged from 37378 to 38852.
2. The only documented delivered date is 10-51.
3. the CFR's are often 51-33xxx but also like 51-30xxx and 52-30xxx.
4. At least three examples have Vehicle Repair Data Plates dated 1-59 or 4-59 from "23 BW". I do not know where 23 Base Workshop was located.
5. There are variations in the brass dash plates that deviate from standard American Willys M38 plates: there can be either "M38" or "M38 CDN" as model numbers. Also there are references to the Canadian "Operators Manual CDN OM 9-804" and "with Canadian Supplements" on the data plates.

For those of you with Canadian Willys M38's, I am curious to know if there is a there a patent plate on the wheel well behind the passenger seat?

In summary, my opinion is that:
1. Canada received numerous Willys Overland M38's in the latter part of 1951. The brass dash plates often differed the from typical American M38 Willys plates with the addition of references to M38CDN and to Canadian publications.
2. The first 100 Ford M38CDN's were made in January 1952. The earliest documented delivered date is 2-4-52 (F-100006:February 4th, 1952). 2165 units were produced, ending November 27, 1952 but with delivered dates extending until Feb. 25 1953.
There were 2 contacts: Contract E-20 LV7 639 ARMY extended to include roughly the first 300 M38CDN's. The balance were contract E-20 LV7 742 ARMY. Other than the data plates reference I have not been able to determine any difference between the jeeps of these 2 contracts. It might be relevant that approximately the first 300 or Ford M38's did not have the CFR stamped on the front left frame rail but documented simply by a painted stencil on the body.
Any additional information would be appreciated: I have a detailed questionnaire that I can PM to anyone with a Canadian M38.
........... Brian

I have compiled a questionnaire of M38CDN details and appreciated any new information. PM me for details if you have an M38CDN. ......... Brian
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  #7  
Old 30-01-15, 02:57
rob love rob love is offline
carrier mech
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCA View Post
4. At least three examples have Vehicle Repair Data Plates dated 1-59 or 4-59 from "23 BW". I do not know where 23 Base Workshop was located.
Brian
23 Base Workshop was a joint British/Canadian workshop in Germany. They would do assembly line rebuilds on the various fleets of vehicles. There is an article about it in an old EME digest here:
http://www.emebranchgem.ca/CMFiles/Journal/2_2008_e.pdf
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  #8  
Old 30-01-15, 06:33
BCA BCA is offline
Brian Asbury
 
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Default 23 Base Workshop

Great information on 23 Base Workshop. Photos of 3 M38's in Germany in 1961 submitted to CMP Magazine by Steve Hawken show Canadian M38's with 51-33xxx CFR numbers which I strongly suspect were from the first batch of Canadian M38's made by Willys and delivered to Canada in 1951, prior to the Ford production. Maybe an unusual number of the early Willys M38's ended up in Germany?
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  #9  
Old 30-01-15, 06:48
rob love rob love is offline
carrier mech
 
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We usually sent the new equipment to Germany before equipping the units back home. At least that was the case in the 70s and 80s.
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  #10  
Old 30-01-15, 07:45
Comox Air Force Museum Comox Air Force Museum is offline
Rob Roy
 
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Folks, just for your info I got this from a visit to the Ford plant in Oakville just before I moved out west.

M38A1
Build dates 11-28-52 to 3-24-53
Serial numbers 200041 to 200750
for a total of 709 units
Truck were all delivered to 27 ORD in London Ontario.


You might note that the start date for the 38A1 is the day after the date Brian posted as the end date for the M38 11-27-52 .
Rob
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  #11  
Old 31-01-15, 02:59
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Brian Asbury
 
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Default 1952 Ford production record

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Here is the only hard evidence that I have seen from Ford for M38CDN and M38A1CDN production. Based on this I disagree with Rob/Comox. To me the production records say that at November 1952 month-end there had been 41 M38A1's produced ( note that as for the M38's a jeep produced by month-end probably had a data plate with a "delivered date" quite a bit later.)
Rob: you statement implies that there were no M38A1's lower than F-200041. However M38A1 F-200014 and M38A1 F-200022 do exist: both in Ontario.
Unfortunately I do not have the 1953 report, just the handwritten notes that in December 1952 and January 1953 a further 750 M38A1 were produced. That would make a total of 791. The highest existing serial plate that I have seen is F-200683 with a delivered date of Feb.11, 1953 (so it was actually produced sometime before that).
Just a reminder to owners: the delivered date on your data plate was not the day that Ford counted as the jeep having been produced. The delivered date is often much later, perhaps due to inspection schedules, need for repair or other type of delay.
We need to find more Ford records. Especially the final month-end records for 1953. The 1952 sheet included in the upper part, not shown in my photo, details of normal Ford commercial production. ....... Brian
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  #12  
Old 04-02-15, 01:18
GJG GJG is offline
1951 M-38CDN
 
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Location: Québec
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Default M-38 cdn

Quote:
Originally Posted by BCA View Post
Gaetan, It is interesting that you only found 3 mounting holes for the master plate that normally holds the brass dash plates. Perhaps one of the sheet metal screws was broken-off in the hole?
Your CFR number 51-30035 strongly leads me to believe that you have a Willys Overland M38 that was delivered about or after October 1951 (10-51). I have information on at least 6 Willys Overland M38's that were delivered to the Canada. While my information is incomplete, in general:
1. Their serial numbers ranged from 37378 to 38852.
2. The only documented delivered date is 10-51.
3. the CFR's are often 51-33xxx but also like 51-30xxx and 52-30xxx.
4. At least three examples have Vehicle Repair Data Plates dated 1-59 or 4-59 from "23 BW". I do not know where 23 Base Workshop was located.
5. There are variations in the brass dash plates that deviate from standard American Willys M38 plates: there can be either "M38" or "M38 CDN" as model numbers. Also there are references to the Canadian "Operators Manual CDN OM 9-804" and "with Canadian Supplements" on the data plates.

For those of you with Canadian Willys M38's, I am curious to know if there is a there a patent plate on the wheel well behind the passenger seat?

In summary, my opinion is that:
1. Canada received numerous Willys Overland M38's in the latter part of 1951. The brass dash plates often differed the from typical American M38 Willys plates with the addition of references to M38CDN and to Canadian publications.
2. The first 100 Ford M38CDN's were made in January 1952. The earliest documented delivered date is 2-4-52 (F-100006:February 4th, 1952). 2165 units were produced, ending November 27, 1952 but with delivered dates extending until Feb. 25 1953.
There were 2 contacts: Contract E-20 LV7 639 ARMY extended to include roughly the first 300 M38CDN's. The balance were contract E-20 LV7 742 ARMY. Other than the data plates reference I have not been able to determine any difference between the jeeps of these 2 contracts. It might be relevant that approximately the first 300 or Ford M38's did not have the CFR stamped on the front left frame rail but documented simply by a painted stencil on the body.
Any additional information would be appreciated: I have a detailed questionnaire that I can PM to anyone with a Canadian M38.
........... Brian

I have compiled a questionnaire of M38CDN details and appreciated any new information. PM me for details if you have an M38CDN. ......... Brian
Hi Brian
There was no broken screw and the 3 holes were not threaded.
Army procedure is strict. If my jeep is correctly stamped on top of front left rail, how can you accept 51-33xxx (maybe related to US base in Canada?) as CAR number or that jeep stamped with 52-xxxxx was delivered in -51 or that the army forgot to stamp 300 jeep later. A CAR number coming only from painted stencil is not very reliable.
Gaétan
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Old 04-02-15, 20:57
BCA BCA is offline
Brian Asbury
 
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Hello Gaetan,
There are three places on the jeep body pre-punched for data plates. These holes are not threaded but instead use a 3/8" No, 6 sheet metal screw: 4 holes for the data plate mounting plate (on the dash), 4 holes for the patent plate (on wheel well behind the passenger seat) and 4 holes for the fording control plate. I think you mean that there were only 3 holes present for installing the data plate mounting plate on the dash panel.
My guess would be that this was a factory mistake: one of the 4 holes was not punched correctly. When the mounting plate was attached to your dash only 3 screws were used. Later the data plates went missing: lost or stolen.
It is hard to imagine a jeep being produced without a set of data plates. I have information on 9 other Willys M38 Canadian jeeps. They have Willys serial numbers between 37853 and 38852. This is in the range of October 1951 Willys M38 production. I have a note that you mentioned your M38 ownership paper listed the serial number as 38852: A number that makes perfect sense for an October 1951 Willys M38, Toledo Ohio, delivered to Canada!
...... Brian
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  #14  
Old 04-02-15, 21:51
BCA BCA is offline
Brian Asbury
 
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Default CAR/CFR numbers

Gaetan, You ask my opinion on CAR/CFR numbers. I use the term CFR (Canadian Forces Registration) number only because I think it was the later terminology for the CAR (Canadian Army Registration) number. I have accumulated data on 10 Willys M38's used by Canada, 96 M38CDN for which only the CFR is available (observing frames or from ownership papers or from historical photographs), and 257 Ford M38CDN for which the Ford serial number is known (from existing data plates or from ownership paperwork). From this base I have made my conclusions.
I have seen no official paperwork that describes the allotment or procedure for assigning CFR's, but I conclude that:
1. There were 2 blocks of 5-digit CFR numbers allotted for M38CDN and continuing to M38A1CDN vehicles: The first block is 3XXXX starting with 30001. This block accounts for most M38CDN (to at least 32138) and 1953 M38A1CDN vehicles (observed to cover a range of at least 32181-32908).
The second block is 33XXX. Often seen on Willys M38 CDN dated 10-51 or in historical photos (often Germany early 1960's) as well as a few M38A1CDN Willys and Fords.
All known 1951-1953 jeeps CFR's fall into either one of these 2 blocks.
2. The date prefix only refers to the year that the CFR was actually assigned to a vehicle. In other words there will never be both a 51-30001 and a 52-30001.
Stamping Procedures: The common place to find a CFR is on the top left frame rail between the bumper and the grill. There are examples of frame-stamped CFR's stamped for 1951, 1952 and 1953. However, based on my database there is no known examples of a Ford M38CDN with a CFR stamped on the frame CFR between serial F-100001 and F-100300. This is based on 50 known M38's in this range, many of which I have closely examined or discussed in detail with the owner. Instead the frame is either blank or has a very small inspector's stamp: the only source of a CFR in this range has been from surviving decals or ownership papers. There may be a relationship between the lack of stamped CFR's and the early E-20 LV7 639 ARMY contract which I can only pin down as having also extended to about F-100300.
I always expect the un-expected: During service or rebuilt programs it would have been so easy to switch data plates from one jeep to another. There are examples of serial plates over-stamped by someone during service. It is certain that collectors have mixed-and- matched good frames with good bodies+data plates. Many serial numbers or dates may have been mis-read due to dirt, paint or poor eyesight.
I am keen to hear from owners of loose souvenir M38 data plates. The delivered date, winch or non-winch, inspectors stamp and contract number (639 vs 742) is all good information that can help build the story of Canadian M38's, both Ford and Willys.
Any published, original source information is much needed: not just anecdotes about how someone at Ford or elsewhere said this, that or the- other-thing. The only solid evidence for Ford production is the previously- posted Ford 1952 year-end serial number report.
......... Brian
PS: Gaetan: So in your case I assume that sometime in late 1951 (October or later) a Canadian Army inspector, at some unknown army base, stamped your frame "30035" using a number from the pre-assigned batch. He prefixed it with "51", the year he stamped it. He moved on to the next jeep and probably another Willys and stamped it 51-30036. Eventually in February 1952, other inspectors, upon receiving Ford M38CDN's did not stamp the frames, but assigned CFR's as painted stencil's for about 300 vehicles, at which time they realized the wisdom of stamping the frames again. (the first documented "delivered date" for a Ford M38CDN is Feb.4 1952 for F-100006, so the CFR would have been assigned after that). Different inspectors may have been assigned different blocks of CFR's to use.

Last edited by BCA; 04-02-15 at 22:16. Reason: update
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  #15  
Old 05-02-15, 21:09
GJG GJG is offline
1951 M-38CDN
 
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Default M 38 cdn

Brian,
For the 1951 start up production, Ford Canada certainly used all Willys parts, excepted nuts & bolts, which explains the frame serial number. Then in feb. 52, suppliers outside of Willys did shipped directly to Ford and Ford got wheels and tires from canadian suppliers.
It is hard to believe that the canadian army had variations in the stamping procedure. From Robert Grieve published in the OMVA CMP Magazine Issue No. 13, May 1996:
All the Jeeps were shipped from Windsor to Hagersville, ON for inspection prior to military service...
All the vehicles also had a convoy light installed as a field modification, done upon receipt by the Royal Canadian Electrical and Mechanical Engineers.
(see post #1 above, item 4: Robert Grieve citation)

Last edited by GJG; 18-03-16 at 02:56. Reason: 2016-03-17 reference to R. Grieve citation added
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  #16  
Old 05-02-15, 21:37
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Brian Asbury
 
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Gaetan,
I will be asking Rob Grieve where he got his information. Hopefully some official documents will become available so answer our questions. For now all we can do is examine as many surviving jeeps as possible. ... Brian
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  #17  
Old 29-06-18, 21:33
Lyle Watkins Lyle Watkins is offline
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Default RCEME engine Rebuild Plate

I'm looking for a RCEME Vehicle Repair Data Plate for my 1952 M38 CDN.

Please let me know, any help will be appreciated.

Cheers, Lyle Watkins
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