MLU FORUM  

Go Back   MLU FORUM > MILITARY VEHICLES > Post-war Military Vehicles

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 25-09-15, 14:45
Stuart Fedak Stuart Fedak is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 534
Default Historic Vehicle Plates: Pros/Cons in Ontario, Canada

I was wondering about the advantages and disadvantages of Historic Vehicle Plates for vehicles such as the Canadian Bombardier Iltis in the Province of Ontario (Canada).

(OREG 628)
historic vehicle” means, a motor vehicle that,
(a) is at least 30 years old,
(b) is operated on a highway in parades, for purposes of exhibition, tours or similar functions organized by a properly constituted automobile club or for purposes of repair, testing or demonstration for sale,
(c) is substantially unchanged or unmodified from the original manufacturer’s product, and
(d) does not have attached to it year-of-manufacture plates

What is the advantage of a "Historic Vehicle" plate on a vehicle, rather than a regular motor vehicle registration?

It seems to me, in the definition of a Historic Vehicle puts restrictions on the use of the vehicle. I know in Ottawa, there are very few events that are functions organized by a properly constituted automobile club.

I am unaware of any official recent events in Ottawa that have been organized by a properly constituted automobile club, such as OMVA.

I know that folks can say that they are out-and-about for "purposes of repair, testing or demonstration for sale" , but depending on how much you drive in a given year, that could be a stretch.......

What is the risk of having a Historic Vehicle plate? I know that insurance rates are usually reduced when a vehicle has Historic Vehicle plates.

Your thoughts?

Stuart
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 25-09-15, 15:34
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
Terry Warner
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: On the river flats in a poor part of town
Posts: 2,059
Default

My interpretation of the Historic Plate is its limited annual mileage clause. Yes, I do roadtests every week during the driving season. But I'd like to have the option of a significantly long roadtrip, without worrying about exceding some arbitrary cap. My road insurance is a rider (?) on my daily driver policy with restrictions of its own, such as no off-road and no driving to work regularly.

As we know, keeping the wheels turning and the engines working is troublesome enough without an additional set of restrictions. So, unless I had something that had bad road manners or was so scarce I'd be afraid of damage, my vote it to plate the Jeep like a car and only deal with the insurance company restrictions.
__________________
Terry Warner

74-????? M151A2 plated and on the road
70-08876 M38A1 in dry storage waiting for more money
53-71233 M100CDN trailer manufactured by Motor Coach Industries
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 25-09-15, 15:55
Stuart Fedak Stuart Fedak is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 534
Default limited annual mileage clause in the Highway Traffic Act

Quote:
Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh View Post
My interpretation of the Historic Plate is its limited annual mileage clause. ... my vote it to plate the Jeep like a car and only deal with the insurance company restrictions.
I have not seen a limited annual mileage clause in the Highway Traffic Act (Ontario). I assume you are referring to the additional restrictions imposed by private insurance, when a vehicle is insured as a Historic Vehicle.

I agree on the importance of keeping any vehicle running and exercised to keep all the seals, gaskets and parts moving. There seems to be a consensus that just taking a vehicle out a few times a season is not enough....

I consider the slightly higher vehicle registration and insurance costs are well worth the ability to decide on a wonderful afternoon to jump in the Jeep, take the BBQ and go for a drive along the Rideau River and stop for supper.

I also prefer to drive my "Jeep" to events within a 300 km radius of Ottawa, rather than tow it to the event.

I understand that for certain Historic Vehicles, that the Historic Vehicle plate may offer some advantages.... To quote a phase in use in Canada at the moment, my "Jeep" ... "is just not ready yet...." to be a Historic Vehicle.

Cheers!
Stuart
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 26-09-15, 00:39
Edwin Wand Edwin Wand is offline
Ed Wand
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Niagara
Posts: 49
Default Historic Plates Ontario

How does one define a properly constituted automobile club.

Presumably, something organized by the Cdn War Museum could be an issue because it is not an automobile club. Could the same be said about a Lions Club somewhere when they include a jeep or two in their May Day parade?

The same wording seems to apply to a dealer's plate. There have been instance where dealer plates have been used to allow historic vehicles to be driven without having to worry about insurance, plates and safety certificates.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 26-09-15, 01:40
Stuart Fedak Stuart Fedak is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 534
Default Dear Prudence.....

Edwin,
I have found over the years that jurisprudence can be very confusing to understand properly, as some things are not very well defined. This is often done on purpose. Also, some jurisprudence "remains silent" on the details, which leaves the final interpretation to a judge, if and when the case goes to court. It also means, that until it is tested in court, the fine points will not be obvious.

To make things even more confusing, you can be dealing with several layers of government, federal, provincial, and municipal who all tend to interfere and try to further define things, which they may or may not have authority to limit or permit.

The other confusing thing, is any item in law, can not be interpreted in isolation or in a few lines. It is usually in combination with other laws, regulations and amendments to an act.

In looking at the issue of "Historic Vehicle" plates in Ontario, I just would like to understand when is this a good thing (from the perspective of the collector) and when is it more trouble (again from the perspective of the collector).

In my case where I like to drive my vehicle a lot over the summer months, it appears there is not really any advantage to the Historic Vehicle plates. It just seems to be more restrictive.

For those who have gone the route of the "Historic Vehicle" plate in Ontario, what did you consider the advantage to be, in your particular case?

When I read...

(b) is operated on a highway in parades, for purposes of exhibition, tours or similar functions organized by a properly constituted automobile club ........... and when organizations such as the Ontario Military Vehicle Association (OMVA) do not seem to be interested in sponsoring parades or tours, who do we have left in Ontario that can be a properly constituted automobile club?

I think at one time the local chapters of OMVA could help sponsor events, but it seems those days are gone...... This seems a valuable service that could be done for those who have their vehicles registered as "Historic Vehicles"......

Your thoughts?

Stuart
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 26-09-15, 02:32
Bruce Parker Bruce Parker is online now
GM Fox I
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,484
Default

A couple of thoughts. The insurance and registration fees are a big factor, so unless you're made of money, 'historic' is the way to go. Every CMP I've licensed was historic and I never had a problem doing a lot of 'road testing'. I don't see anywhere where they require a log for such use.

I find it odd that year of manufacture plates (I'm talking Ontario here) are not acceptable. Of all the vehicles that would benefit from such a program you'd think historic ones would be top of the list. I hope I'm reading that requirement right. In my perfect world a CZ XXX number painted on the door of a 15cwt would be a legal 'license plate' under the year of manufacture plate regulation.

The other wrinkle is that, despite being historic in every other respect, the 'commercial' regulations based on weight still apply. So even if your 60cwt is historic by one regulation, the regulation that says any vehicle over a certain weight is 'commercial' prevails and commercial requirements must still be met. So in theory, a 'historic' seventy year old 60cwt is also by definition a commercial vehicle liable for all the safety, lighting, inspection and use restrictions required of a modern vehicle in the same weight range. Don't even think about putting historic plates on an antique truck with air brakes. I know all of his because of my attempt to license my somewhat overweight Fox. I could have omitted any mention of weight (the clerk processing the application wouldn't be the wiser; nothing but a historic 2 door 'hard' top...right?) but should I crush some Honda Civic that would be no defense.

Bottom line, weeze wun ober-regulamated bunch 'a schmucks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak View Post
I was wondering about the advantages and disadvantages of Historic Vehicle Plates for vehicles such as the Canadian Bombardier Iltis in the Province of Ontario (Canada).

(OREG 628)
historic vehicle” means, a motor vehicle that,
(a) is at least 30 years old,
(b) is operated on a highway in parades, for purposes of exhibition, tours or similar functions organized by a properly constituted automobile club or for purposes of repair, testing or demonstration for sale,
(c) is substantially unchanged or unmodified from the original manufacturer’s product, and
(d) does not have attached to it year-of-manufacture plates

What is the advantage of a "Historic Vehicle" plate on a vehicle, rather than a regular motor vehicle registration?

It seems to me, in the definition of a Historic Vehicle puts restrictions on the use of the vehicle. I know in Ottawa, there are very few events that are functions organized by a properly constituted automobile club.

I am unaware of any official recent events in Ottawa that have been organized by a properly constituted automobile club, such as OMVA.

I know that folks can say that they are out-and-about for "purposes of repair, testing or demonstration for sale" , but depending on how much you drive in a given year, that could be a stretch.......

What is the risk of having a Historic Vehicle plate? I know that insurance rates are usually reduced when a vehicle has Historic Vehicle plates.

Your thoughts?

Stuart
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 26-09-15, 11:35
Robin Craig's Avatar
Robin Craig Robin Craig is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kingston
Posts: 1,522
Default

Here is a quick answer, don't.

Longer answer, while most cops have far much better things to worry about than investigating whether the Lower Little Podlesham Antique Vehicle and Laundry Mangle Club is a properly constituted entity if you got the one odious one who did go digging do you really want to get screwed over?

Honestly, you are restricting the use of your vehicle for the sake of wearing a plate that identifies the vehicle as being old, why? Those who know what an Iltis is already know. The great unwashed masses of the public wouldn't know the difference between it or an M38 nor do they care.

I come back to the base point, what great advantage or purpose does having that plate get you? A few bucks lower annual renewal fee, well whoo hoo! Most of us have likely blown that saving on this years dud purchase anyway!

Back to you
__________________
Robin Craig

Home of the Maple Leaf Spin Adapter
2 Wide Track trailers
2 Canadian Mk1 Ferrets
M4 Treadway bridge training sets
Kawasaki KLR250 CFR 95-10908 ex PPCLI
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 26-09-15, 14:42
Bruce Parker Bruce Parker is online now
GM Fox I
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,484
Default

I stand to be corrected because it's been a few years, but if I recall it wasn't so much the registration cost, it was insurance. With historic plates (I assume based on lower use) you paid a pittance. If you had regular plates you paid regular insurance as if it were your 'day' car. Maybe that's changed and you pay the full freight in both instances which make the historic plates useless as Robin says.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Craig View Post
Here is a quick answer, don't.

Longer answer, while most cops have far much better things to worry about than investigating whether the Lower Little Podlesham Antique Vehicle and Laundry Mangle Club is a properly constituted entity if you got the one odious one who did go digging do you really want to get screwed over?

Honestly, you are restricting the use of your vehicle for the sake of wearing a plate that identifies the vehicle as being old, why? Those who know what an Iltis is already know. The great unwashed masses of the public wouldn't know the difference between it or an M38 nor do they care.

I come back to the base point, what great advantage or purpose does having that plate get you? A few bucks lower annual renewal fee, well whoo hoo! Most of us have likely blown that saving on this years dud purchase anyway!

Back to you
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 26-09-15, 15:32
chris vickery's Avatar
chris vickery chris vickery is offline
ABB Field Service TRES
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Nipissing Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,515
Default

Bruce, regular plate, regular insurance.
Historic plates, vintage insurance
Simple as that.
I asked my provider about usage of historic vehicles and according to him, as long as it was being used periodically, even for a country drive, this falls into the "exhibition/display/parade" category of useage.
I have never heard of any case of someone being charged under the HTA for operating a licensed and insured historic vehicle in a safe manner.
Maybe it has happened but one must remember the "spirit" of any law and the intentions behind it when it was written.
Most guys I know who operate antique vehicles belong to some sort of club or organization to promote their old vehicle. While not a lawyer, I think this would cover the "automobile club" stipulation.
When a guy has a whole shop full of restored vehicles it gets awfully expensive to plate and isure all of them using regular plates.
Also, I have seen trucks over 4500kgs wearing historic plates. Go to any large truck show and check it out.
__________________
3RD Echelon Wksp

1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC
1958 M274 Mule 2cyl (4cyl engine waiting for transplant!)
1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-
1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08669 1 Hussars
1971 M38A1 CDN3 71-08889 QYRANG
1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer
RT-524, PRC-77s, C42s
and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and.......

MLU, MVPA, G503, Steel Soldiers, FMVA
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 26-09-15, 15:43
Stuart Fedak Stuart Fedak is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 534
Default OMVA and functions organized by a properly constituted automobile club

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak View Post
When I read...

(b) is operated on a highway in parades, for purposes of exhibition, tours or similar functions organized by a properly constituted automobile club ........... and when organizations such as the Ontario Military Vehicle Association (OMVA) do not seem to be interested in sponsoring parades or tours, who do we have left in Ontario that can be a properly constituted automobile club?

I think at one time the local chapters of OMVA could help sponsor events, but it seems those days are gone...... This seems a valuable service that could be done for those who have their vehicles registered as "Historic Vehicles"......

Your thoughts?

Stuart
Chris, I see your signature block still indicates you are President of OMVA, so would you comment on my question above....

Stuart

Quote:
3RD Echelon Wksp

1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC
1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08669
1971 M38A1 CDN3 71-08889
1953 M38A1 CDN 53-33136
1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer
1953 M101 3/4T CDN trailer
1953 M100 1/4T CDN trailer
1943 Chevy M6 G506
and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and.......

MLU, President-OMVA, MVPA, G503, Willys Forum, Steel Soldiers
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 26-09-15, 16:19
Harry Moon Harry Moon is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Burnaby B.C. Canada
Posts: 625
Default BC Antique Plates

In BC we have similar conditions attached to our very low cost Antique Plates.
Western Command has worked out and worked with ICBC(Govt Insurance) regular club events and standard authorizations, gun shows, Museums, annual events etc. We also have a procedure for authorizing one off events even for only one MV. Works good and when my truck was out on loan for one of our convoys I found out the insurance was prompt and fair. The one offs are useful for our more remote members isolated by distance. The club also has public liability insurance through membership in the NACCP, as many events or parades insist on such organizational insurance separate from vehicle insurance.
All that for only $40.00 a year for Western Command and typically less than $100 for antique insurance (public liability only)
Now the club minutes should reflect all this and emails with dates are used to verify this.
As a precautionary note, a past president was killed in his jeep more than 30 years ago and as there was no record, or indeed authorization, therefore there was no insurance. Lesson learned and with proper record keeping we pretty well have something to drive to or at just about anytime.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 26-09-15, 17:00
Bruce Parker Bruce Parker is online now
GM Fox I
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,484
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris vickery View Post
Also, I have seen trucks over 4500kgs wearing historic plates. Go to any large truck show and check it out.
Oh, I have too. I also had a frustrating talk with MTO on the issue. The guy was adamant that the historic provisions did not exempt a vehicle from being 'commercial' based on weight, so the commercial regs applied even it was historic (and, I hate to admit it, a strict reading of the law based on what it says...and doesn't say...with regard to exemptions tends to support this interpretation). I think the trucks you see out there had the owner apply for plates based on age and simply not mention weight, or if they did the licensing office hadn't conferred with my MTO friend. My concern, like any other when dealing with the law and insurance, is that everything goes fine until there is an accident and then all these issues come up and you get in a heap of trouble.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 26-09-15, 18:42
Stuart Fedak Stuart Fedak is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 534
Default Perhaps Western Command and OMVA should talk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Moon View Post
In BC we have similar conditions attached to our very low cost Antique Plates.
Western Command has worked out and worked with ICBC(Govt Insurance) regular club events and standard authorizations, gun shows, Museums, annual events etc. We also have a procedure for authorizing one off events even for only one MV. Works good and when my truck was out on loan for one of our convoys I found out the insurance was prompt and fair. The one offs are useful for our more remote members isolated by distance. The club also has public liability insurance through membership in the NACCP, as many events or parades insist on such organizational insurance separate from vehicle insurance.
All that for only $40.00 a year for Western Command and typically less than $100 for antique insurance (public liability only)
Now the club minutes should reflect all this and emails with dates are used to verify this.
As a precautionary note, a past president was killed in his jeep more than 30 years ago and as there was no record, or indeed authorization, therefore there was no insurance. Lesson learned and with proper record keeping we pretty well have something to drive to or at just about anytime.
Harry, very useful information. Based on what you wrote, there would be an advantage if OMVA was able to get your procedures, and implement a similar documented process for those who drive Historic Military Vehicles in Ontario. This would be a significant value added service that would make membership in OMVA useful. The current format of just having two "shows/flea markets" a year seems to be of limited value to those not in the Greater Toronto Area (GTA).

Without getting into specifics, in Ontario, those who have an ATT, require a letter of invitation to those who transport going to a range not on the ATT. This requirement was implemented by the provincial CFA. I can see the importance of having a documented process, with full audit trail that is transparent. I don't think it would require much work, once the process was worked out.

Again, thanks for the details of how you keep folks in compliance in BC. Good stuff...

Cheers!
Stuart

Last edited by Stuart Fedak; 26-09-15 at 19:00. Reason: typo, as always
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 26-09-15, 18:59
Stuart Fedak Stuart Fedak is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 534
Default The regulations remain silent on Historic Vehicle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Parker View Post
Oh, I have too. I also had a frustrating talk with MTO on the issue. The guy was adamant that the historic provisions did not exempt a vehicle from being 'commercial' based on weight, so the commercial regs applied even it was historic (and, I hate to admit it, a strict reading of the law based on what it says...and doesn't say...with regard to exemptions tends to support this interpretation). I think the trucks you see out there had the owner apply for plates based on age and simply not mention weight, or if they did the licensing office hadn't conferred with my MTO friend. My concern, like any other when dealing with the law and insurance, is that everything goes fine until there is an accident and then all these issues come up and you get in a heap of trouble.
In the area of jurisprudence, this is what is referred to the act remains silent on Historic Vehicle. The regulations do not specifically include or exclude the requirements of some historic vehicles that would normally be commercial trucks.

There are those who believe that the historic vehicle plate excludes them from the requirements of commercial trucks. There are also those who believe that not withstanding the Historic Vehicle plate, that the requirement under law would be to comply with all requirements for annual safety, daily log of inspection and all other requirements of commercial trucks.

In law, when an act remains silent on certain issues, it is usually assumed that the higher standard would apply in all other areas. This concept means that if your vehicle has historic plates, that notwithstanding the historic vehicle plate, that all standards that would apply to such a vehicle, would be in force. That is usually the standard that would be applied in cases of litigation.

I think the intent of the historic vehicle plates would NOT have been to create a mechanism for unsafe vehicles to drive on the public highways. The general public good would demand that any historic vehicle be as safe as any other vehicle on the highway.

In Ontario every year we have tires and other objects falling off commercial trucks that result in accidents and deaths. I think the requirement to prove documentation of ongoing safety aspects of any commercial/historic vehicle are reasonable.

Your thoughts?

Stuart
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 26-09-15, 19:30
Bruce Parker Bruce Parker is online now
GM Fox I
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,484
Default

I think "don't ask, don't tell" will get you a plate and insurance but I'd want to be on solid ground if there is a historic exemption for large, 'commercial' ones. If there isn't I wonder how far it goes? Would you need all those amber lights on the corners and top? That would somewhat ruin the authenticity. I also wonder what you would have to do to get trailer plates for a large trailer, say a four wheel 40cwt CMP type. There is no 'historic' trailer plate and your restoration would most likely be treated as a new trailer. Would that mean reflective red/white strips down its khaki side? Lastly, I imagine weight will also determine the class of driver's license you need to operate it. Even with historic plates your 'G' license won't allow you to operate something large enough to require a higher class.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak View Post
In the area of jurisprudence, this is what is referred to the act remains silent on Historic Vehicle. The regulations do not specifically include or exclude the requirements of some historic vehicles that would normally be commercial trucks.

There are those who believe that the historic vehicle plate excludes them from the requirements of commercial trucks. There are also those who believe that not withstanding the Historic Vehicle plate, that the requirement under law would be to comply with all requirements for annual safety, daily log of inspection and all other requirements of commercial trucks.

In law, when an act remains silent on certain issues, it is usually assumed that the higher standard would apply in all other areas. This concept means that if your vehicle has historic plates, that notwithstanding the historic vehicle plate, that all standards that would apply to such a vehicle, would be in force. That is usually the standard that would be applied in cases of litigation.

I think the intent of the historic vehicle plates would NOT have been to create a mechanism for unsafe vehicles to drive on the public highways. The general public good would demand that any historic vehicle be as safe as any other vehicle on the highway.

In Ontario every year we have tires and other objects falling off commercial trucks that result in accidents and deaths. I think the requirement to prove documentation of ongoing safety aspects of any commercial/historic vehicle are reasonable.

Your thoughts?

Stuart
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 27-09-15, 00:10
Harry Moon Harry Moon is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Burnaby B.C. Canada
Posts: 625
Default BC And Western Command

Procedures were pretty much in place when I came along in part to that tragedy many years ago. At the meetings annual events and regular trips are mentioned in the minutes and from time to time listed on Facebook, and the newsletter. For individuals who may be spread out sometimes some 100's of miles away the procedure is to email one of the executive with your date and purpose, who is participating and an executive member will reply and I instruct to print it out and keep the email with you.
So when Drew and Tami want to take out their ferret to a cruise in or tour around and they are all the way up in Salmo they are approved. I always add the caution of not to work or to school (unless part of a display or commemoration).
So far no problems and as from time to time we question our good fortune with the ICBC Vintage plates Vs. collector plates (another story) I only recently inquired if we could get a speaker from ICBC to come out to a meeting to answer questions. We have a convoy planned for 2016 to go to the MVPA convention in California. We frown on trailer queens!
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 27-09-15, 01:55
Robert Bergeron's Avatar
Robert Bergeron Robert Bergeron is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: North America
Posts: 804
Default '' commercial'' historic vehicules

Gents,

Just for comparison purposes , i will chime in to give you some info about the Québec situation.

Historic vehicule plates ( more than 25 years since manufacture ) in Québec allow you to drive only on roads that are posted at 70 KM/hr or less . The only exception is when you are headed to a documented bona fide historical vehicule event and back on the day of the event. No other exceptions.

Plus, if your truck's gross weight ( weight of truck plus allowable cargo ) in at more than 4500 Kgs ( Say a CMP Chev C-15 G.S. ) , you have a commercial truck even if it was made 100 years ago..So , you are limited to roads posted at 70 Km/hr or less AND you have to have a yearly inspection, stop at weighing stations , proper driver's licence and have a logbook.

Except for reduced insurance ( ?) and licencing fees ( $104.45 vs $222.58 ) , no real advantage in Québec.

Cheers .

Bob
__________________
44 GPW
44 C-15-A Wire 5 with 2K1 aluminium house
44 U.C. No-2 MKII*
42 F-15-A GS
10 Cwt Cdn all metal trailer with impact brakes
M100 Cdn trailer ,
M101 Cdn2 trailer
44-No 19 High Power set . Will go in the Wireless box

Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 27-09-15, 02:26
Robin Craig's Avatar
Robin Craig Robin Craig is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kingston
Posts: 1,522
Default

I knew this one would spin up a bit, nice to see some great posts.

This is a public forum and open to reading by anyone.

There are many people who drive vehicles for which they have lied by omission or just plain lied in some part of the process.

There is no requirement to get an historic plate to get the lower insurance rate offered by the specialist policy folks. My Land Rover 1 Tonne has regular black plates. Insurance is something like $150 a year.

As far as the big trucks go, when I do the ones for my employer that are all registered 100% properly and weighed and safetied every year that they are on the road and that is purely based on their weight, not their usage. That also calls for an emission test. We have two Bedford MJs and an M818 with a Rogers trailer. If it is decided that they will be on the road they get the works.

We also do a lease up and use a CVOR of a commercial company and carry the papers. Its all legit. Daily trip inspections are done as well.

And FYI there is no need for rows of orange lights etc as they are tested on the basis of " fitted at time of manufacture" as befits the vehicles that have come in on the 15 year rule.

At your peril if you don't. Around here Kingston Police are very zealous in their inspection of anything that moves. My co workers and I often get pulled with nothing in a pick up truck, let alone something bigger.

Once we start showing proper papers on the Bedfords they back right off and I have had zero aggravation. The conversation then becomes a show and tell experience.

Do what you will, but don't go telling MTO you have seen this or that, you just cause aggro for the rest of the folks out there.
__________________
Robin Craig

Home of the Maple Leaf Spin Adapter
2 Wide Track trailers
2 Canadian Mk1 Ferrets
M4 Treadway bridge training sets
Kawasaki KLR250 CFR 95-10908 ex PPCLI

Last edited by Robin Craig; 27-09-15 at 02:31.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 27-09-15, 02:53
Stuart Fedak Stuart Fedak is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 534
Default Thanks for all the polite dialogue on my question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Craig View Post
I knew this one would spin up a bit, nice to see some great posts.

This is a public forum and open to reading by anyone.

Do what you will, but don't go telling MTO you have seen this or that, you just cause aggro for the rest of the folks out there.
Lots of good comments, and I think I have the answer that I was looking for. In my case of my Canadian Bombardier Iltis 1/4 ton "Jeep", I will not go the route of the Historic Vehicle plates, as it seems to offer no real advantage and it seems to be too restrictive for my personal case.....

For those who do have "Historic Vehicle" plates in Ontario, they should reflect on their own situation and assess if they are still in compliance with the spirit and letter of the law, and if there are additional things such as daily inspections and log, yearly safety inspections that should be performed.

Cheers!
Stuart
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 27-09-15, 03:09
Robert Bergeron's Avatar
Robert Bergeron Robert Bergeron is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: North America
Posts: 804
Default Iltis

Stuart,

I have my Iltis licenced as a regular passenger car in Québec and i travel to work, the grocery store, basicly anywere i want to go . I even go to the US ( Maine ) .

It is a great and practical HMV . It even has a heater , a luxury i do not have in my GPW.

Cheers.
__________________
44 GPW
44 C-15-A Wire 5 with 2K1 aluminium house
44 U.C. No-2 MKII*
42 F-15-A GS
10 Cwt Cdn all metal trailer with impact brakes
M100 Cdn trailer ,
M101 Cdn2 trailer
44-No 19 High Power set . Will go in the Wireless box

Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 27-09-15, 04:20
Harry Moon Harry Moon is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Burnaby B.C. Canada
Posts: 625
Default Further on B.C. Vintage

I'm not sure what the largest MV we have with vintage plates but they include several half tracks at least 4 carriers, an M5 high speed tractor and about a dozen m135/211 trucks. Some people like the collector plate but standards are much higher as are the premiums. Licence and registration with $5mil liability is usually much less than $100. Minimum on a regular plate is 10X that.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 27-09-15, 13:30
Robin Craig's Avatar
Robin Craig Robin Craig is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kingston
Posts: 1,522
Default

Different provinces = different rules, choose where you live
__________________
Robin Craig

Home of the Maple Leaf Spin Adapter
2 Wide Track trailers
2 Canadian Mk1 Ferrets
M4 Treadway bridge training sets
Kawasaki KLR250 CFR 95-10908 ex PPCLI
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 27-09-15, 15:03
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
Terry Warner
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: On the river flats in a poor part of town
Posts: 2,059
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh View Post
My interpretation of the Historic Plate is its limited annual mileage clause. Yes, I do roadtests every week during the driving season. But I'd like to have the option of a significantly long roadtrip, without worrying about exceding some arbitrary cap. My road insurance is a rider (?) on my daily driver policy with restrictions of its own, such as no off-road and no driving to work regularly.

As we know, keeping the wheels turning and the engines working is troublesome enough without an additional set of restrictions. So, unless I had something that had bad road manners or was so scarce I'd be afraid of damage, my vote it to plate the Jeep like a car and only deal with the insurance company restrictions.
Insurance is an added layer of complexity to this discussion. Not just liability but fire, theft and vandalism. My household insurance doesn't cover everything with wheels. Snowblowers, bikes and wheelbarrows, but not motorized vehicles. If my parked 'green treasures' are damaged or destroyed they are not necessarily fully insured. I suppose I could argue and complain if my claim would be disallowed, or pay much more per month.

The same company wouldn't insure the M151A2 as a driver because it is over 20yrs old and would have been a new vehicle to them. This is why I had to go to Haggarty, and their policy has limitations.
__________________
Terry Warner

74-????? M151A2 plated and on the road
70-08876 M38A1 in dry storage waiting for more money
53-71233 M100CDN trailer manufactured by Motor Coach Industries
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 27-09-15, 16:24
rob love rob love is offline
carrier mech
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Shilo MB, the armpit of Canada
Posts: 5,098
Default

Manitoba has antique plates, which are only good for parades, events, and to and from the repair shop. No random Sunday drives. It is basically liability insurance, and costs under $100 a year.

The Manitoba Association of Auto Clubs (MAAC) is the umbrella organization that deals with our government insurance company Autopac. If a parade or event is published in their newsletter, then you are definitely good to go. The various clubs will feed their events up to MAAC for publication.

MAAC negotiated for another plate and insurance plan: the collectors plate. A lot more expensive, it combines the insurance required during the warm months with layover insurance for the winter months. It is significantly more than antique plates, requires a safety inspection, and limits the size of the vehicle below 10K pounds.

For myself, there are some military vehicles I drive to work which get regular insurance, and some which only go to the odd display in which the antique plate fills the need. I have not used the collectors plate yet, but may look into it in the future.

I suspect Autopac and the government would just as soon we all drove 5 year old or less vehicles with full safety inspections. Lobbying them for exemptions is very difficult, which is why we have MAAC: there is strength in numbers. Mind you, since our insurance is a government mandated monopoly, getting them to make concessions is difficult.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 27-09-15, 19:57
Mike Gray Mike Gray is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Omemee, Ontario, CANADA
Posts: 39
Default Historic Vehicle Plates

Lots of great replies and posts here guys about the subject. I can only add by saying we have historic plates on both our vehicles, 1954 M37 and 1967 M38A1. The licence stickers are cheaper (big deal) and our insurance is also. However, 95% of the time we provide our own lift, and trailer to an event. We make sure we are locked down to regulations, otherwise MTO will now be up our ass.
One interesting anecdote. Coming back from Campbellford Legion Anniversary one Sunday morning, 8:30 a.m., maniac cop stopped the Bren Carrier. We were fined for not having Slow Moving Vehicle triangle!
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 28-09-15, 00:07
Terry Witiuk Terry Witiuk is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Mississauga, Ontario Canada
Posts: 141
Default Regular Plates vs Historic Plates

When transferring ownership of my Ferret, I chose regular plates based on the description/restrictions by MTO for use of a vehicle if licensed with Historic Vehicle plates. I knew that I would be driving it more for pleasure than for parades or exhibition. I figured that if something terrible happened while out on a "Sunday afternoon drive", the insurance company would be quick to investigate and possibly find a way to not cover me. Better safe than sorry. Insured the Ferret through Lant Insurance with Haggerty as the actual insurance company or underwriter.
Cheers, Terry.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 28-09-15, 02:46
Mike Gray Mike Gray is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Omemee, Ontario, CANADA
Posts: 39
Default

Seems there are no definitive guide lines for HMVs in this country, regardless of where you live. I agree with Stuart, perhaps OMVA could step up to the plate and design a draft document and guidelines. Having also been to many vintage vehicle shows, I have seen many of them come up on two wheels when they let go, and nothing happens. Some of them should not actually be on the road. Yet to see a Carrier do that.
However, I can not recall ever seeing an M4 Sherman being stopped and handed a ticket. Perhaps we should just trade in all our stuff and buy a tank.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 28-09-15, 02:52
Harry Moon Harry Moon is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Burnaby B.C. Canada
Posts: 625
Default BC and Western Command

I kind of knew already from previous discussions both on MLU and person to person that we have a great deal with our Vintage plates in BC, the collector plate is also popular with quite a number who have MV's that can get around economically and reliably on your own. Right hand drive, big, or tracked MV's limits just tooling around to the store. Plus right from when I joined Western Command (1998) it has been a very active club with two chapters, Mainland and Vancouver Island. Lots of events, shared load, great participation and it has been a pleasure to be President of for 8 of the last 10 years.
Every odd year we try to do a convoy of at least a week duration and we have sure sorted out every conceivable mechanical and reliability issue and we are planning a big presence at the 2016 MVPA Convention in California.
I'll put this out there now that there are always empty seats and Guests are welcome to contact us about filling a seat or... driving something.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 28-09-15, 14:14
Stuart Fedak Stuart Fedak is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 534
Default Historic Military Vehicle Ontario Association

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Gray View Post
Seems there are no definitive guide lines for HMVs in this country, regardless of where you live. I agree with Stuart, perhaps OMVA could step up to the plate and design a draft document and guidelines.
The situation in Canada is the Provinces/Territories are each responsible for things such as the Highway Traffic Act and then further details are further limited by the municipalities. This has resulted in the variation of rules and regulations that we have.

I am impressed by the work that has been done by Western Command in BC who have pro-actively worked with the other players, namely the Province and the insurance carrier. Based on what has been discussed, the BC model could be considered "Best Practice". I feel this type of liaison work, is what any organization that claims to be a Provincial Association, should do.

In an ideal world, if we had a truly functioning Ontario Association, then that organization would be working with the MTO and the insurance industry to make sure that our interests were being taken care of. These issues are best taken care of by the Ontario Association, rather than the individual at the counter of the local Service Ontario outlet.

When you look at the issue of "Historic Vehicle" plates, the MTO issues the plates, and I think the insurance broker that really understands the market is Lant Insurance

Ref: https://www.lant-ins.ca/

When you look at military vehicles with Historic Vehicle plates, they would fall into...

Ref: https://www.lant-ins.ca/collector-car-definitions/

...... " Antique and Classic Automobiles (25 years or older)

Automobiles that are at least 25 years of age including commercial weight collectible automobiles such as: retired military trucks, retired semi/dump/tow/trucks, and retired farm tractors. " ....

They also have a listing of Cruise Nights...

ref https://www.lant-ins.ca/cruise-night...cruise-nights/

and events....

ref: https://www.lant-ins.ca/cruise-nights-events/events/

To me, this suggests that the various historic vehicle clubs in Ontario are already co-operating with the insurance broker, and letting them know about scheduled events. So, if there was a functioning Historic Military Vehicle Ontario Association, it seems to me, some of the process is already worked out.

I believe that this would be a value added service that could be considered by the Ontario Military Vehicle Association.

I would like to hear from the OMVA to see if this is something that they would consider..... If the OMVA, does not think this is a valuable service to the HMV community, then I would assume that this vacuum will most likely be occupied by some of the regional HMV organizations.

Your thoughts?

Stuart
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 28-09-15, 20:48
Mike Gray Mike Gray is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Omemee, Ontario, CANADA
Posts: 39
Default

This has been an interesting thread, and the input from others on this is great. I agree with Stuart, that B.C. and Western Command have set up a good model and example to follow. And Lant in Ontario is doing a good job of maintaining some kind of level, but the playing field is not level and there are still a lot of grey areas. Most of us certainly can not road/highway the same speed as other vintage vehicles plated as Historic Vehicle. But, as pointed out previously in this thread, our Bren Carrier was ticketed and fined for not having Slow Moving Vehicle triangle, though we were not told it was required, or is it, when Historic Vehicle plates were issued us.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sold: CMP C-15A Wire 3 Vehicle Plates RichCam For Sale Or Wanted 1 15-05-15 02:50
Historic Vehicle Association - 2010 Study Phil Waterman The MLU Sappers Mess 4 30-11-13 15:02
Historic commercial vehicle rally Euan McDonald Military Shows & Events 4 18-11-12 22:32
Club Historic Rego plates Ryan The Sergeants' Mess 9 29-06-07 16:29
DMKF - Danish Historic Military Vehicle Association Hanno Spoelstra The Softskin Forum 5 03-12-04 01:36


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:46.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Maple Leaf Up, 2003-2016