How To: Installing 9:00-16 tires on CMP wheels

[Bob Carriere]

I have finally documented the installation of a Americam bead profile Michelin XL on a Canadian CMP 16 in. rim intended for "British 5 degree wheels"

I have previously showed pcitures of the device we designed/built at the barn but this will be more complete. It will take numerous postings as I have great details covered by 40 + pictures. The may need to be grouped in series of 5 due to web limitations. All pictures were shot inside the barn using ambient light, later sequenced, cropped and resized. It took twice as long to get the package together thanit took us to do the job.

So here goes the first series starting with the home made tool.

Pic 1- Simple construction that will allow squeezing the tire on the CMP rim.
Pic 2 and 3 Using standard 1x2 in. stock..... 3/16 thcik wall for rigidity.
Pic 4- threaded rods 3/4 in. NOTe initially we used regualr hardware store rods and the thread started to chip and gall after the secodn tire.
So we made new one from Grade 8 threaded rod and started using anti-seize compound.......
Pic 5 A section of 36 inches will yeild 4 9 inch sections...... nuts were welded on.

[Bob Carriere]

Comments to follow pictures.

Pic 6 Two crosses where fabricated...... the bottom one will fit underside fo the lower half of the CMP wheel
Pic 7 the top cross is 18 3/4 in. the btoom one 14 inches. Holes are drilled to match the bolt circle of the CMP wheel pattern. Holes are best drilled at 7/8 for some looseness.
Pic 8 Notice the yellow arrow...... holes seem to line up better in this configuration. Nuts have been welded on the bottom of the smaller cross.
Pic 9 The top cross is meant to fit loosely on top of the bottom half of the CMP rim.
Pic 10 You can see the space between rim and puch blocks. Blocks were made of cut off piece 2x2 and welded.
NOTE.... if Imade another one I would reduce the space between rim and cross puch bocks to about 1/8 of an inch.

When that cross with the blocks if fulled screw in the tire bead willbe at least 2 inches or about mid way on the bottom half of the rim.

[Bob Carriere]

Once this is over coudl someone show me how to insert pictures with text so I do not have to use the edit posrtion to add the captions...

Pic 12 Shows the bottom of the rim with the cross sitting inside.... roughly lined up with the wheel holes.
Pic 13 Flipped over the cross is now resting on a scrap piece of wood roughly 7x7 square... it keeps the bottom cross held against the rim and makes it easier to start the bolts.....
Pic 14 shows the upper cross overlapping the rim's edge.
Pic 15 & 16 shows the NOS Michelin tire...... rim is clean ....NO rubber has been removed and no magic dust used to facilitate installation.
Tire was removed from a STEYR rim...... acquired fullly installed from Bombardier who were working on a reverse engineering projecy that went defunct..... all 5 wheel/rims were acquired at a very modest price. Theystill have the rubber teats from the molding and I assumed not driven on except to rool into the plant.

Rims were cut with a 4 in. grinder to make sure the bead would not be damaged during removal.

[Bob Carriere]

Now for the dry run.....

Pic 17- Tire is just barely balanced on the bottom half of the rim. Actually had a tendency to iether slip on one side or the other.
Pic 18 Looking at the isnde of this dry mount....... the side further form the camera was slightly lower than the front side..... that is where the tool comes handy in leveling this difference.
Pic 19 We have installed the top cross inside the rim....... a little tricky as the side walls were stiff and the push block had to be squeezed in. Two bolts are installed for this dry installation/illustration.

Pic 20 & 21 shows how the push blocks are resting on the bead. Not even at this stage but when we do the actual installation the high side would be srewed down first then alternate to keep the cross even.

Now we move on to the actual SNOTHY installation.

[Bob Carriere]

The fun part.

The first few tires we installed we used just brute force then a truck tire dealer sold me a left over tire lubricating compound for 5 bucks... best money ever spent and we still have enough for x number of tires as you need very little.

For this exercise I really spead it on thick so it could be visible. You need a pair of disposable rubber gloves and you just scoop it up in your hand and smear it generously on the tire bead and the rim bottom half.

now for the Pics..

Pic 22& 23 the Snoth bucket..... we had to warm it up by the furnace so it would flow. It is a vegetable based thick goo.... we have about 3 inches left or 5 years worth. No smell can't tell you what it tastes like but Grant was forever threathening me to wipe his hand on my face as I had use a liberal amount.
Pic 24 snoth applied.......
Pic 25 & 26 Starting to screw down the thread rods until you start getting a contact between nut/washer/upper cross. The you habe to go slowly to make sure the tire bead slips evenly on all four side....

[Bob Carriere]

Just hate it when I get disconnected..... web seems to be acting strange and slow tonite..... may be the wires are toooo cold.

Pic 27 / 28/ 29.. Threaded rods are now going downin a criss cross pattern making sure the bead is being pushed onto the rim evenly. some of the snoth is visible being squeezed out...... it is recommended for use on flaps and tubes as well.
Pic 3- and 31... threaded rods are not fully screws down against the rim. The tire is now firmly in place at least two inches down or about mid point onthe bottom half of the rim. We used an impact pun but a wrench or ratchet would do just as well.... no great torque needs with the rods lubricated and the tire snoth.

In retrospect the pcuh blocks could have been made longer to puch down further but it becomes a bitch to remove and harder to insert at the start with increase height. The width of the 2 in. block seems to be a happy compromise.

[Bob Carriere]

The work is almost half done....
Pic 32 Time to remove the larger inner cross. We use section of 2x4 to hold the side wall which we pried open.... don't worry the tire will not ride up in the rim that easily.
Pic 33 Time to insert the tube.... making sure to align the tube stem with the rim notch. Blocks have to be romved and reisntalled in turn as you work the tube inside.
Pic 34 The tube had been inflated before inserting to work out the fold/creases due to storage..... it was also warmed up in the balst of warm air form Lucifer. Same was done with the new flap. Most of the iar was removed from the tube and carefully pushed by hand inside the tire cavity.
Pic 35 The new flap is now carefully inserted starting with the tube stem first....... tube and flap can be easily moved to realign if necessary. Excess snoth does help in the movements.
Pic 36 Flap in full bloom....... bottom half has been inserted now the top half needs to be squeezed inside. Keeping about 2 or 3 ppounds of air jsuy enough to keep the tube rounded help a great deal and hold the flap in place.

Now more than 3/4 done.

[Bob Carriere]

Now for the top half....

Pic 37.... That is my hand smearing some "snoth" on the top half of the tire bead in preparation for the top half of the rim to be dropped on the tire.
Pic 38 Top half of rim is in place and with a little pushing by hand the two longer tire studs are just protruding enough to install the two nuts.
NOTE all nuts and studs had been cleaned with a die&tap and the thread given a wallup of antiseize compound.
Pic 39 we hand tighened the two longer studs/nuts and squeezed the side wall just enough to catch another 2 nuts.
Pic 40.... home stretch...... criss crossed tightened all nuts until the rims halves are totally in contact with one another.
Pic 40 tire bead has not yet fully creeped up to the top rim. tire only has about 3 pounds of pressure at tis point.
DO NOT FORGET...... The bottom half of the tire is far from being seated at this point so watch our fingers.

[Bob Carriere]

Now the pressure is building up.....

Pic 41 We slowly inflated the tire and at 16 pounds the top was fully seated.

Remember the bottom is not done yet so resist the temptation to flip the tire by hand and get caught...
The top really moved very slowly. As the pressure inscres you can hear the tub/flat/ beads creak a little.
At 24 pounds the bottom half slowly popped in place...... continued to 40 pounds.

That's it!!!!!

Thanks to my able assistant who did most of the work and got most of the extra snoth on hishands whiel I manned the camera.

Now we have 4 more to do. The biggest job is cutting the rims to remove the tires.

Overall that little tool has installed nearly 20 tires( bar thread to 10:50 chevron tires)..... never had to trim the tire bead or machine the rim...... and NO magic dust was used in this project.

I have not installed 20 inch tires but would expect that all that is needed is to build a larger cross for the 20 in. tire.

The most significant difference for us was the discovery of the "industrial" snot for the tires..... if we ever run out I would gladly pay full price for a bucket of that stuff.

Hoping this will be helpful for current and future MLU members.

All comments and questions for details are welcomed.

Grant if something is missing in the text please feel free to jump in.

Amendment: from David Herbert on tube inflation
....Inflate the tube to full round before inserting into the tire carcass then allow to deflate while re-inserting the valve to retain "some" air inside. Having the tube valve removed greatly speeds up this simple operation.

Once the tube is inserted we add some air and manually spin adjust the tube stem with the indentation of the rim..... leftover of the "snoth" greatly facilitates moving the tube.

We then deflate the tube, but not totally, to allow installation of the flap.

Then do the final reinflation... in slow stages..... listening for the creaking of the tube/flap/tire bead as everything falls in place.

I fully agree with David and would recommend a full deflation and re-inflation of the tire to minimize the chances of any parts being out of place.

[Grant Bowker]

One thing that Bob didn't mention was the follow-on.
Knowing we had done a bunch of the STA 10.5-16 chevron pattern tires and the more modern Michelin in the photos with ease I brought the cross tool home intending to mount Michelin LTX M/S in size LT235/85R16 on CMP rims for use on a trailer. I was promptly humbled. Rather than the bead neatly slipping down the rim as all previous had done, the bead went down at the pressure points at the end of the arms but hung up and seemed to retreat inward between the arms. I haven't identified the cause (or solution) yet but have considered the bead diameter being a bit smaller (seems unlikely as all mentioned tires have been designed to fit standard tubeless rims), the bead and sidewall being more flexible (seems believable with the reduction in real plies as opposed to ply rating) tires and rims were inside, warm so perhaps the rims expanded more than the tires with the warmer temperature or perhaps the warmth contributed to increased tire flexibility, maybe I need to be more generous with the snot or maybe the added thickness of tie coat and OD paint on the rim was just too much (again, seems unlikely).

[Bob Carriere]

Modern tire casing are much more flexible than the massive basing of CMP tires.... just lifting them makes a big difference.

I also suspect that the modern tire is meant to be flexed to be installed...so the modern bead bends stricly at the push blocks....creating a square pattern with the four blocks allowing the bead to ride up on the rim rather than slide down......

You know I love the snot.... were you using enough of the stuff???

Will need to try our hand on a cold -20C tire casing at the barn to see how it performs.

Cheers

[maple_leaf_eh]

Impressive examples of engineering and determination.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Bob,

Thanks for sharing your experience, most interesting so I split it off the Hammond thread to its own thread.

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Once this is over coudl someone show me how to insert pictures with text so I do not have to use the edit posrtion to add the captions...

See the posting images thread.

H.

[Robert Bergeron]

Fantastique Bob. You have solved a long standing problem for all of us !

[rob love]

Once caution I woudl add is that if you end up nicking or cutting the bead, the tire can self destruct during inflation or operation.

I was recently repairing tires on a limber and gun which had previously been done by the local tire company without skiving. On filling, it appeared that one tire would not seat it's bead. After tear down, the cut in the bead was obvious and I had to scrap what otherwise was a 98% tread non-directional tire.

Personally I will continue to skive the tires slightly. I used to force the tires onto the rims using the Coats 5000 tire machine. Works great until you need to get the tire off for a flat.

[Bob Carriere]

Not a bad idea of doing a seperate thread as it maybe easier to find in a search.

On the Stovebolt engine forum they take the best tips, techniques,etc and have them reviewed by a team of moderator and if approved the "content' is copied/entered in a "tech tip' Section or a "how to" section which stands by its own. Might be a worth while consideration for MLU.

Thanks for all your help.

Bob C

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Not a bad idea of doing a seperate thread as it maybe easier to find in a search.

On the Stovebolt engine forum they take the best tips, techniques,etc and have them reviewed by a team of moderator and if approved the "content' is copied/entered in a "tech tip' Section or a "how to" section which stands by its own. Might be a worth while consideration for MLU.

Thanks for all your help.

Bob,

That's basically what we are doing by moving threads into the Restoration Forum.

But, I would welcome "content" moderators - who wants to volunteer?

And oh, I could do with a few extra regular moderators as well. These two tasks could be combined perfectly.

Thanks,
Hanno

[colin jones]

That looks great Bob and a nice simple idea. Again it shows with a little combined effort and idea the most difficult job becomes not so hard at all.
Fantastic, I will remember this system should I ever come across this job.

[Bob Carriere]

I agree with you Hanno the Restoration forum does do that.

Now for the "moderators"...... what does it entail......

How much technical skill is needed??

......since I am on the forum site almost daily...sometimes more .....I wonder if I could help out.

Cheers

[Robert Bergeron]

Great show chum !

Bien fait !

[jack neville]

Great idea Bob.

My Fordson WOT and its new STA 10.50 x16 tyres wish you had come along earlier. My neighbours ears would have been spared a lot.

[Grant Bowker]

I have decided that my difficulty mounting the Michelin LTX tires on CMP rims was largely due to more flexible sidewall and bead structure. After a couple of false starts I added an auxiliary pusher made from short bits of 2x3 and 2x4 lumber powered by a C clamp to push the bead around the curve of the rim. Once round the curve, the cross pusher worked fine to take the tire further down the rim ready for the tube and flap. The other half of the rim went on exactly as expected, Put the rim in place, tighten the rim halves together and add air to ease the tire into place on the rim. Photos attached show the wood addition to tooling, the tire half mounted and the finished product.

Also comparative photos showing the LT235/85R16E LTX against the STA chevron tires in 10.50-16 size and against Michelin XL in 9.00-16. Although the LTX look small in comparison, they are rated to carry over 3000 pounds which is actually slightly greater than the rating of the 9.00-16 CMP tires (although they were run over capacity for some of the 15cwt trucks).

[Bob Phillips]

Well at risk of repeating what may have already been said...in my experience the biggest pain was getting the 60 year old tires off the rims. I used a backhoe; put the stabilizer leg down on one side of the tire and pushed down the tire with the bucket and then cut the bead with a torch. Once practiced it was easy to do. To put the new US style tires on I had the rims turned down about 1/16 inch all the way around the inside. This removed most of the pitting, left a smooth surface so a minimum of "SNOTH" was required and hopefully made it easier to remove them again some day. I will be trying this method again this summer but will have the rims sandblasted once I get the old tires off...BP

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Bob C.

Excellent thread, concerning Bob P. the tire removal issue yes the problem of 1st time tire removal has been discussed at length.

My point concerns the subsequent removal, how well you clean and paint the rims will make all the difference in future removals. Once the rims have been cleaned down to bare steel and well painted, my experience has been that the tires can be removed with just the tire irons from the tool kit. Average time 1/2 per wheel. There are some tricks which will try find the photos to explain.

Cheers Phil

[hrpearce]

For tyre removal spend the money on a decent bead pusher.

[Bob Carriere]

Your posting made me do a quick search on the web.

There is a manual bead breaker from ESCO...... as cheap as $137 US with free shipping..........

Since we have 4 11:00 x 20 to break..... 4 or more 20" CMP rims plus an endless string of 16" rims....... it sure sounds like a wise investment.

Design is fairly simple and the though of copying a home made version is tempting...... but at the price not worth the effort.

The first six tires and the cost is recovered and no driving to the truck tire shop.

Thanks for proding my curiosity.

Cheers

[CWO (ret) Gilles Aubé]

Hello Bob, which Esco Bead pusher would you recommended?
Today tire shop are not able or equipped for our need.
Gilles

[Bob Carriere]

Bonjour Gilles

Can't really recommend something I have not bought or used yet, however....

It seems to me that the above model would be ideal for the hobbyist and should work on the CMP rims. I have seen videos of its use on large tractor tires and it seems to be doing the job very well and only requires hand tools.

The model 70160 retails as low as $137 US with free shipping inside continental US which is convenient as I have a mail box in Upper NY state.

There is a larger heavy duty manual model that retails for near $600 model 20429 Pneu-Tech his intended to be used with air impact hammers and comes with grease fittings.... not any faster as it is still manual but could take more repeated operations without wearing out as fast.

All the manual machines rely on a screw device which if over used can wearout....regularly greasing the screw thread would go far to ease the operation and extend the life of the tool.

Even the low tech tire installer that we created use gets a liberal dab of grease on each threaded rod when ever we use it.

By chance Rob Clarke did by a smaller bead breaker model he purchased a few months back and sadly he found it lacking in capacity both for the size of the CMP rim or the pressure required. It is very similar in concept to the ESCO 70160 but about 1/4 its size.
We have used his device successfully on smaller tires and on one side of the 900x16 Michelin we unrimmed,,,,, it could not get a bite on the reverse side of the rim due to the deep dish design of the rim. We finally gave in and cut the rim on half to remove the tire.

I have yet to consult with Rob and Grant on the purchase of the ESCO model but when we do and when we test it out we will be sharing our information with the rest of MLU.

I have no trouble around here getting a tire shop to remove stubborn tires for us...... use to be $20 dollars to remove and reinstall the new tires.....now its by the hour and if your tire is stubborn you pay for it.... it works out to approx. $25 a wheel just to remove and we have to loosen and remove the 8 rusted nuts at our own expense of time and Oxy-acet. gas......

I have estimated that in about 6 tires we break even....... with the 3 of us using it it will get paid for quickly.

The tractor/truck dealers use a hand carried hydraulic system that is worth about $3000. and allows one man to remove tires from a fram tractor without removing the rim off the tractor. I have seen the operator change a blown tire on my Massey in less than 2 hours including reloading the tire with calcium but he did charge me over $500 for the service call.

I have studied the design sold by ESCO and concluded that it would cost us just as much to make our own when you consider the material and some machine shop time.....

Hang in there sooner or later we will have more information to share. It would be easier if the Cdn Looney was worth a bit more.....

Cheers

PS ...Comments & suggestions on tire bead breakers welcomed.....

[Jon Bradshaw]

I have a CMP and some LSVW tires so will be trying this some day.
I will take my time and try not to ruin any of the beads by using plenty of the snot...

[hrpearce]

My bead pusher was purchased for breaking the bead on tractor tyres because the rims with weights added are too heavy to handle by myself.
As can be seen in the picture the blitz tyre needed more than one push. I used one inch boards to hold the first push then pushed again with a one inch board between the bead and the pusher.