Removing CMP tires from rusted &*^%%* rims..

[Bob Carriere]

CAUTION.....CAUTION...... read last email...... we have found a way to exceed the tool design!!!! NEW PICTURES OF DAMAGE ADDED

News from the Hammond barn.

We got the ESCO tire bead breaker tool and put it to the test. Little did we know that the rim we selected was going to be a bit***.

The tool was purchased off Ebay at $139 US converted to $201 Canadian Pesos plus $26 dollars PST GST compliment of the Canada Custom.





Tool is weld made....simple construction. Yo will noticed that the claw that losks on to the inner face of the rim has been beefed up...... the Ebay picture did not have that improvement.

Wanting to know how it was made and under the pretext of seeingeif the inner thread was greased we took it apart. Simply remove the lock nut and set screw. The end of the set screw fits into a key way cut into the foot bar and keeps the foot from turning....... a problem that was resolved in there HD $600 model which uses a square tube.


Yes there was some lubricant.... but knowing the heavy load that we would be submitting the tool to we recoated with Never Seize grease and put it together again.

PS.... having a hard time getting the pictures to insert where I want....

Next will move to using the tool.

[Bob Carriere]

We fished out a CMP rim that had a blow out a few years ago and was left outside with Mother Nature.

By the way the tool does come with pictures and instructions. They DO NOT recommend using a air impact gun but a air ratchet gun may be used. The difference is the air ratchet only get up to 90 foot pounds and the typical air impact gun in 1/2 in. size gets about 450 pound.... the 3/4 we have does 900.

The air ratchet is useless unless you are just taking up the slack in the bolts. We used a HAND ratshitt with an 18 in. handle and Grant who did all the heavy work did admit that it took some muscle power.



The tool works best with two people since you have to tap the base of the tool for the wedge to fit under the rim's edge.....at the same timeas you lightly tap you take up the slack on the claw that pulls the foot in deeper.

So tap tap thighten tap tap tighten....... don't go wild you risk cutting into the side wall ( which we did not care as it was toast) until the free space between the throat of the tool and the edge of the rim is closer..... we went to far and chipped a corner of the foot...... not a big deal but should be avoided.... we simply unscrewed the claw bolt a half turn and went on.

[Bob Carriere]

Obviously the first section you use is the hardest...... a small block of wood to prevent the tire to flex back is useful.... we used the rim nuts.

After repositioning a few times we started to see the inner edge of the rim..... this is after 4 separete tries.


We had to use the tool to fully rip the rim out of the tire.



The rim will need a good cleaning....... wonder if the dish washer can handle this job.



Moving on to the lower half of the rim......

[Bob Carriere]

Just has difficult to insert as on the front side except now we now how to approach it.....tap tap tighten..... the back half is much deeper and almost requires to go around at least 3/4 of the rim ......block off with wooden block then come back to push it down evenly. The foot is long enough to unrim the tire.



Eventually the tire gives up and the rim comes out......

Yes it takes arm muscles....... and on a real tough nut like this one and being the first we did about an hour....... it took melonger to edit, resize and post the information.....

Next our observations after the fact......and conclusions.

[Bob Carriere]

We sure picked a doozee to tackle with a new tool and it worked.

Similar badly rusted tires have previously resisted to hours of pounding with a sledge hammer, long chisels and pry bars....... the full weight of the bucket on my 7000 pounds Massey, bottle jacks against rear traction-pull bar of the tractor and just lifted the tractor then the tire fold back up....

We think it is worth the money at $227 CDN.......

Would not recommend to a journey man earning his living doing rims all day long.

The alternative more expensive one at +$600 US is too expensive for the hobbyist... at least the cheap skates at the barn....

Does need to be properly greased BEFORE first tiem you use it and again if you have been abusing it regularly.

We did take it apart after the first tire job...... we excell at taking things apart... and all was well.... but we did had some Molydebnum high pressure black grease..... I dripped some Moly gear box additive while the foot was removed so that it wold flow down the vertical tub up to the top flange....
...it dripped after and Grant was upset with all the black grease/oil.... hey it was just marking it's territory.

Our conclusion is it's worth the money and it works.... next we will tackle 20 in. rims with badly rusted stiff tires and almost new 11:00x20 2 1/2 ton rims as we need to save the 20" tires for the CMPs.
....and will keep you posted.

Some of our observation after removing the rim and examining the tire beads.
they had been savagely attacked with a grinder and suspect that at least all the covering rubber plus 2 or 3 plys of the rayon ( yes Rayon not cotton as we suspect the tires to be circa late 50s).

The tire bead was rust welded to the rim...... the contact area of the rayon threads were rollingover themselves before letting go....... it might explain why the tire had a blow out in the side wall just a few inches above some of the bad gouges..... it blew up while standing still inside a Winter shelter.....and yes it do go Boom

I know some of you do trim the extra rubber flashing from the beads but PLEASE do not cut into the plys of the bead.

Some last pictures in closing.

Comments and suggestions always welcome.

[hrpearce]

Well done Bob and Grant. It looks like your breaker has a longer push than mine. I spent two hours by myself removing my worst tyre. Your tool cost about half what mine cost more than ten years ago.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Bob and Grant

Excellent job of documenting the process and proceedure, you should submit this MVPA for Army Motors makes a good how to article.

Had you used any penitrating oil prior to effort or were you trying it dry as part of the test?

The point on not using impact wrench is a good one, I've stripped wheel pullers using impact wrench.

Cheers Phil

[Grant Bowker]

We only applied a little penetrant as I was pretty well convinced that we would have had to almost drench the tire to get a useful amount between the tire and the rim. As well, if we had been trying to keep the tire for re-use I would have been reluctant to apply a mixture of oil and solvent (penetrating oil) to the rubber.
Perhaps soapy water would work to help the bead breaker slide between tire and rim and then more to see whether it would work its way between tire and rim? Some kind of lubricant would certainly have been nice to help slide the tire over the rim (probably best if applied from inside the tire - possible on CMP rims but harder on one piece rims).

[rob love]

Here is the similar tool but air powered. Much heavier but it saves all the wrenching. Because the shop I work in is smaller, I am able to get by with this as opposed to a larger machine like the Coats5000HIT.

Mike C and Mr Hupp had a demonstration of it last sdummer when they were by the museum.

The tool shown (Branick TTR) does show up as surplus from time to time. I have one at home myself which I picked up for $75 from my favorite surplus yard. It works well on the CMP rims and on most of the 20 inch rims, although the offset on the Honest John 5 ton rims does not allow this tool to clamp on.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Great write-up Bob!

Here in Europe quite a few people have bought this pneumatically operated ex-German Army unit which reportedly works wonders on stubborn tyres as well.

[Bob Carriere]

Very nice set up with the flexibility to work on various size/type of rims.

No doubt faster than a manual set up.

Cheers

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

With these different designs it would be interesting to measure or calculate the forces being applied to push the bead off.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

We have finally found a way to exceed the design parameter of the tool......

....so before putting money down stay tuned for details....

we have tried the tool on the worst rusted-frozen rim we had and bent the claw and pin that holds the tool in place but just brute torque with a 16 in hand ratchet.....

I have taken pictures which I will share with the US distributor to see what they recommend....
....and are in the process of designing a stronger claw made of wood for a machinist to reproduce in T1 steel.... thicker cross section to avoid bending.

Stay tuned we have not given up yet!!

Bob C

[Jacques Reed]

No doubt it has been covered before on MLU, but if not, and you intend to scrap the tyres anyway, I have found it easier to cut the tyre off. Usually the tubes and rust bands aren't worth using again as the bands gets imbedded with heavy scale along with the tube where it comes through the wheel so destroying them in the process is no great loss.

I can get a tyre off in 15 minutes using just an electric drill, sabre saw, hacksaw blade holder, and a cold chisel and hammer.

Drill 2 holes with a 3/8" diameter drill near the bead on opposites sides of the tyre. cut out a wedge with the sabre saw to give you room to work, cut through the bead as much as you can up to the wires using the hacksaw blade holder, then cut through the wires in the bead with the hammer and chisel. Even before the last wires are cut the wheel often comes free.

Of course if you are fitting/removing good tyres the need for good hydraulic or powered tools is essential.

Cheers,

[Ian McColl]

I remove tires from CMP wheels using a simple tire hammer. The secret is not to use the tire hammer as a hammer. I use it in combination with a sledge hammer to ensure accuracy. I simply work my way around the rim. Once the rim starts to separate from the tire it usually comes off pretty quickly. The first pass is the slowest. The worst tire I had was a 20" run flat which had been on since 1942. It took a little more hammering but eventually came off. A modestly stubborn tire takes between 30 minutes to an hour to remove.

[Jacques Reed]

Just a word of caution:

I still remember my high school metal shop teacher cautioning us not to ever strike two hammers faces together.

Apparently because the faces are case hardened, chips from the hard surface can break off and fly out if struck together with disastrous results to eyes.

Perhaps the tyre hammer face isn't case hardened but I would still suggest wearing goggles when striking it with a sledge just in case.

Cheers,

[Ian McColl]

Hello Jaques,

Thank you for the advice; however, safety always comes first. Safety glasses or even a face shield is used for this activity. The head of the tire hammer does suffer from hitting it with the sledge and starts to collapse over time. I have purchased extra hammers at automotive flea markets for this reason. I should have mentioned in my earlier post that you don't have to strike the hammer with full force. Slow and steady is the secret to this activity.

[rob love]

I was gong to say the same thing about the hammer with a hammer. It won't just be your eyes at risk. A guy at work took a chip into the neck.

I swear by the tire hammer when all else fails. When I was a young Craftsman, we had a tractor trailer come into the shop from Petawawa with two flat tires. I had never seen so much rust in my life. We removed the tires, and tried to disassemble them with the Coats 5000 HIT tire machine, which is normally capable of taking apart anything. No dice, we had that machine almost to the point of bending into two.

The contracts guy ran them downtown, and the good old tire hammer and wedges came out. He said the little guys had them apart in about 5 minutes each.

[Ian McColl]

Personally I have never found the need to use any wedges when removing a tire from a CMP wheel. Once the tire starts to separate from the wheel it does not want to go back in.

I prefer removing these wheels and tires in the colder weather for two reasons:

A) You work up a fair sweat doing it.

B) You can wear heavier / full length clothing to protect your entire body in the event that a piece does break off the hammer.

I also split field stone on occasion and every once in a while a piece comes off the stone that sounds like a 0.22 firing off.

Long story short - you have to use caution and common sense when performing any activity to ensure your own safety and the safety of those around you.

[Jacques Reed]

Hi Ian,

I like your idea of using a tyre hammer to remove stubborn tyres especially as even new tyres on clean rims can present a problem in removing them.

It got me thinking (dangerous in it's own right!). Perhaps using a large copper hammer would be good to use as it would reduce the chance of chipping the face of the tyre hammer and prevent damage to it.
There is still is a small possibility of steel on steel contact if there is a miss hit with the steel collar on the copper hammer so goggles etc still are a good idea.

I find my 2.5 Kg copper hammer a very valuable tool in the restoration kit. Prevents putting flat spots on steel parts where they need a bit of "persuasion". Ideal for whacking sides of tie rod ends and anywhere there are tapered pins to remove them.

Cheers,

[Bob Carriere]

Now have some pictures that illustrates the damaged induced by too much torque on stubborn CMP tires.

The "clsw" on the tool that actually assist in sitting/wedging the foot of the tool between the tire and the rim is the main part that has failed. The claw looks like the curved section from a 5/16 thick steel pipe....about 1.3 the circumference and has a small section of tubeing welded and pinned in pplace to pivot.

Earlier pictures of the tool only shows the plain curved section later model, such as ours, has had a small lenght of 1/4x1/4 steel added to the side of the claw for stiffness.....but not stiff enough as ourts bent just where the reinforcement ends.

Since the main body of th tool has not shown any trauma we plan to have a NEW claw cutout of 1 1/4 thick T1 steel plate with a thicker profile/

JUst as an aside we have used the tool with the existing twist and bent to derim a modern 900x16 tire off a modern rims and it still works fine........ but will need rebuild to work on tough cmp rims. We have kept the bad rim so we can continue the process with the beefed up tool at a later date.

Here are pictures....

[Bob Carriere]

The same pictures will be sent to the manufacturer to see what they offer as a solution.

CONCLUSION....... The tool was never used with a air impact wrench but nonetheless it has its limitation and can be overworked using a 16" hand ratchet. Once the resistance of the tire bead on the rim gets too high the holding claw which should insure that the foot inserted under the rim starts twisting this imparts the same twsiting motion to the tower of the tool..... the more it twist the more the foot slips out and the more the claw bends.
I am confident that a claw made of solid steel with a greater cross section will be more resistant to the twisting action.
Bottom line ..... on some really badly rusted rim/tire it maybe wiser to resort to the various proven "cutting methods" used by members OR spend the big bucks for the professional hydraulic models or visit your local truck centre and pay the man.

Meanwhile we are going to rebuild our model to be more resistant to our heavy handed approach and keep the worst tires for the chainsaw and chisel.

The Barn Boys