Swedish Sherman tanks

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Sherman - ID help needed

After WW 2 Sweden bought a few Sherman tanks. I think there was a platoon of four used for trials in the early 1950-ies.

Anyhow one was in 1958 rebuilt as a test rig for the notorious turretless S "tank".

Could anybody tell what type of Sherman this could have been?

Stellan

[tankbarrell]

Stellan,
Its an M4A4, known in commonwealth service as the Sherman V. This is the model built by Chrysler with the 30 cylinder Multibank engine. The big giveaway is the gap between the bogies, the large engine requiring a longer hull.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Thank You!

May I send another picture of another Sherman in Swedish service. What type?

Photo approx 1952.

[tankbarrell]

Looks like an M4A3 (105)

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Stellan Bojerud
May I send another picture of another Sherman in Swedish service. What type?

Stellan, I think this is an M4(105). One of these is still preserved at the Axvall Armour museum. See http://www.pansarmuseet.se/ for more details of Shermans in Sweden.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

In 1946-1947, Sweden bought four Sherman tanks from the British Army, and tested them to gain experience with foreign tank designs. A report on one of the winter trails in 1948 is published on the webpage linked below. Not surprisingly, the reliability of the vehicles stood out and inspired confidence with the crews.
Sweden did try to buy another 50 surplus Shermans (at less than GBP 1,000 each), but this deal fell through because of difficulties with finding enough spare parts.

Part 1: http://tanks.mod16.org/2016/09/30/sw...f-the-sherman/
Part 2: http://tanks.mod16.org/2016/10/01/sw...herman-part-2/

Stefan Karlsson, curator at the Swedish Tank Museum (https://www.facebook.com/arsenalen.s...fordonsmuseum/), commented:
"In total Sweden had 4 Sherman tanks all bought from UK as far as we know:
- 1 M4 105 mm, still in the collection but missing engine;
- 1 M4A2 (diesel engines), still in the collection and quite complete apart of missing gun;
- 2 M4A4 Firefly, one scrapped early 1950's and one still in the collection - on display in the museum.
We are trying to track more info about these tanks where they came from, what units they might have belonged to etc. As far as I know the M4 was never modified to UK standard, no British fittings etc. to be found. The M4A2 and Firefly has all the correct British fittings etc."


Sherman VC Firefly, one of two which were tested. Note the remains of shipping stenciling on the hull side denoting it was shipped to Stockholm.
One Firefly was preserved in the Swedish Tank Museum, it is unsure if it is the same example depicted in this photo.



M4(105) or Sherman IB with WD census number T-270894. It was marked "IV" denoting this was test tank number 4. It survived to this day and is on display at the Swedish Tank Museum:

[maple_leaf_eh]

Hanno, thanks for bringing this article up on MLU. I read the Sherman email list link and the 2nd page the other day. Very interesting perspective on how neutral Sweden considered the Sherman as a family.

One comment in the archives document caught my attention (http://tanks.mod16.org/2016/09/30/sw...f-the-sherman/), that being reversing a short length of track so the guide horns were facing out not in to improve slippery snow handling. I didn't quite understand how the sections of track could be laid on the ground as a bed and be recovered. The exercise after all was a combat advance with accompanying infantry. But Swedes are anything but practical chaps.

"...The Sherman V also had problems climbing many steep slopes because of the tracks slipping. By using extra track links (TN: possibly for a different tank? the document is quite unclear here and has a few hard-to-read handwritten corrections), these slopes could be climbed, but this took considerable amounts of time. These extra track links, in sets of 3-5, were placed under the tracks with the guide horns facing down, and this provided extra grip."

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

One Firefly was preserved in the Swedish Tank Museum, it is unsure if it is the same example depicted in this photo.
Attachment 129480

It might well be: this tank has appliqué armour without rounded corners (oddly enough), which the vehicle in the Axvall museum has as well. Of course, it could be that both VCs supplied had this feature.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

One comment in the archives document caught my attention (http://tanks.mod16.org/2016/09/30/sw...f-the-sherman/), that being reversing a short length of track so the guide horns were facing out not in to improve slippery snow handling. I didn't quite understand how the sections of track could be laid on the ground as a bed and be recovered. The exercise after all was a combat advance with accompanying infantry. But Swedes are anything but practical chaps.

"...The Sherman V also had problems climbing many steep slopes because of the tracks slipping. By using extra track links (TN: possibly for a different tank? the document is quite unclear here and has a few hard-to-read handwritten corrections), these slopes could be climbed, but this took considerable amounts of time. These extra track links, in sets of 3-5, were placed under the tracks with the guide horns facing down, and this provided extra grip."

Interesting quote indeed. At first I though some things were lost in translations and that they must have referred to the use of grousers (see attached photo).

But as it is described, they clearly used spare track link sections to increase grip. Ingenious!


Source: https://www.mapleleafup.nl/g104/track_vvss.htm

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke

It might well be: this tank has appliqué armour without rounded corners (oddly enough), which the vehicle in the Axvall museum has as well. Of course, it could be that both VCs supplied had this feature.

We do know for sure the surviving Firefly was used as the S-tank test bed shown above.

Pierre-Olivier Buan is studying the photos he took to compare with the period photo in post #6.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

On the warthunder forum some snippets of info can be found from the Swedish Archives dated 1947. The British still had plenty of Shermans on offer, and "new" Rams too!

"full eldrörslängd" translates to full barrel length.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Stellan Bojerud (RIP)

After WW 2 Sweden bought a few Sherman tanks. I think there was a platoon of four used for trials in the early 1950-ies.

Anyhow one was in 1958 rebuilt as a test rig for the notorious turretless S "tank".

Could anybody tell what type of Sherman this could have been?

Further to the initial post of Stellan (who sadly passed away in the meantime):

After the testing and evaluation, one Firefly was scrapped and the other one was converted in 1958 to serve as a test rig for the Swedish turretless Stridsvagn 103 (Strv 103) or "S-tank".

During 1958 and 1959, a series of tests were made for evaluating the plausibility of the S-tank concept. The Sherman VC was one of two tank chassis fitted with equipment for testing if a fixed gun could be aimed accurately using the tank's controlled differential steering. The result of the testing was positive and development of the S-tank continued.

Sometime after the tests were concluded, this Sherman was put back in its original configuration as a Firefly and it currently preserved at the Swedish Tank Museum.



Source: http://www.ointres.se/strv_103.htm and http://ftr.wot-news.com/2014/08/13/s...ank-1956-1961/

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke

It might well be: this tank has appliqué armour without rounded corners (oddly enough), which the vehicle in the Axvall museum has as well. Of course, it could be that both VCs supplied had this feature.

If memory serves, when I was reading the rivet counting websites to learn about Bomb, I recall a comment that although the 17-Pdr fit inside the Sherman turret in principle, in practice there were some components that did not have sufficient clearance. Notably with the gunner's right hand controls, and especially on the early cast turrets which had more angled fronts. The interim solution was to remove part of the casting, and add the applique to the exterior. The steady state solution would have been to redesign the front right corner of the turret. Was there a standardized "kit" for the applique patch, or something more ad hoc?

http://the.shadock.free.fr//sherman_...ank/index.html

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Attachment 129492

Based on that photo, I think the tank in this photo you posted:



is not the one in the museum, because the damage to the appliqué plates is not present in the photo above. It could be the Swedes subjected it to some kind of firing trials, of course, but this seems more like minor wartime damage to me.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

I would agree with you Jakko, but it turns out there is some confusion on the types of Sherman tanks delivered to Sweden.

This source http://tanks.mod16.org/2016/09/30/sw...f-the-sherman/ states: “first one M4A2 and one M4A4 without weapons, then a Firefly with the Continental radial engine and one M4 with the 10,5 cm howitzer", which differs a lot from the list made by Stefan Karlsson of the Swedish Tank Museum. He commented “The 4th tank that was scrapped early 1950's? was probably an M4A4 since we still have a spare Multibank engine. Probably lifted out to be spare engine for the Firefly. But if this 4th Sherman was a Firefly or not I can not say at the moment.”
Currently research is under way to find out more details. It would be great if we could contribute to that.