M38 CDN information

[James "Jim" Patterson]

Hi guys,

Firstly thanks for letting me join your forum.

My names Jim and live in Sunny (or not so) Manchester England

I've owned my M38 for about 10 years now and am looking to do some research to its origins.

when i first bought the jeep it came as a right mess. it was in Greek army camouflage and the engine was in the back under a tarp.

I'll dig out some old pics and post them when i get time over the weekend.

Anyways as my first restoration it was a bit daunting but took it on.
i must say i didn't do it alone i had 2 very good friends of mine helping along the way.

Nether the less she was ready after a year of hard work she started up and i drove her to the test centre for inspection.

With no problems there i quickly got my registration plate and started enjoying my M38.

Its worth pointing out that M38 jeeps over in the UK and kind of looked on as the post war mongrel to the much sort after MB and GPW.
But i loved it and thats all that mattered.

So to the best of my knowledge it was just a run of the mill standard M38 from the US, but my Friend Graham (who also owns a very nice M38) noticed that the chassis number didn't look right to his.

This brought up lots of possibility's, was it a CJ? or something else???

so we never really got to the end of why it was different and just forgot about it.

I recently read something about M38's which made me think.

It was about the M38 CDN jeeps which i believe were built by ford of Canada?

I've read the posts on this forum and its looking very promising that my jeep is an M38 CDN and i believe the "Chassis Number" isn't actually a chassis number at all but a CAR number if thats right?

The number is on the passenger side front end of the chassis towards the bumper and is 31772.

I'm having to wrap this message up now as i'm heading off to work but it would be great to hear some feedback about what else i can look for to help me identify this vehicle.

Oh one more thing ...... the tool box under the seat has JEEP in script pressed in the steel.

Don't know if this means anything but hopefully someone will know.

pics will follow when i get down to my workshop over weekend

once again guys thanks for the add to this group and look forward to discussing this topic with you all.

Thanks
Jim

[maple_leaf_eh]

Welcome aboard!

[Owen Evans]

Originally Posted by James "Jim" Patterson

when i first bought the jeep it came as a right mess.

Hah, my M38 (a US-built one) came as two loads in the back of a Ford transit from darkest Bolton!

Looking forward to seeing your photos. An M38CDN is rare in the UK; most are US or Greek imports, or (like mine) ex-US Air Force surplused out in the late 1950's.

Welcome to the forum!

Owen.

[James P]

OP (post 1), M38 CDN jeeps which i believe were built by ford of Canada?

Built by, is different then assembled by.

[BCA]

Jim: The 31772 you report is on the right side and is not prefixed by the year (52-). The CFR/CAR is always on the top of the left frame between the grill and the front bumper. Maybe the original frame was replaced or the left fame rail was was damaged and an abbreviated version of the CFR number was stamped where you find it on the right side? It could possibly be the final 5 digits of a CFR number 52-31772 which would match the pattern of CFR numbers. Other M38CDN jeeps have been reported with 52-31770, 52-31771 and 52-31773. So look for other clues to it being a Ford Canadian M38: the presence of a convoy light switch below and left of the master light switch, a convoy light on the rear right frame, the use of hex head sheet metal screws to hold the PTO lever cover plate and the transfer case shift boot retainer plate (US M38's were slot or Phillips head). The presence of the reinforcing patches on the upper rear left and right corners of the body (these were added to all Canadian bodies. They were a field mod. for US bodies so not always present). The wheels may be marked Kelsey Canada without the small hole. I am assuming that all the dashboard data plates are missing and that there is no serial/"patent" plate on the well housing behind the passenger seat. ………… Brian

[Al Nickolson]

My 1952 M38CDN CFR 52-31773, delivery date 8-27-52, Serial Number F101692.
My tool box under the front passage seat doesn't have jeep.

Check your frame for additional hole or tie down brackets.
Photos attached of Reg Hodgson's M38CDN 52-30303. I've been told that M38CDN that were ship overseas had these extra tie downs.

[Al Nickolson]

Photo of M38CDN Canadian Provost Corp at Soest, Germany early 1960's.
Cold War Jeep.

[Al Nickolson]

Photo of M38CDN Canadian Provost Corp at Soest, Germany early 1960's.
Cold War Jeep.

[David Dunlop]

Any ideas as to what the small rectangular metal box is tucked directly behind the blackout headlamp on the fender?

My first thought was the C-42 ATU, but the dimensions don’t look correct.

David

[Owen Evans]

Originally Posted by Al Nickolson

My tool box under the front passage seat doesn't have jeep.

All the US-built ones have "jeep" stamped into the front panel of the toolbox. I seem to recall that only the first 500 (approx.) Ford-assembled M38CDN's had this; later units were blank. Others will be able to confirm the accuracy of that figure.

Owen.

[James "Jim" Patterson]

Guys I apologise in advance in getting you some pics and more information. All the info you've given me so far is brilliant and I'll try and get over today. I must say though that with everything your saying it's looking like an American build/assembled one but just really strange to have a number stamped on the chassis.
As I'm aware m38s didn't have any stamping on the chassis what so ever.
My thoughts are maybe either I've missed th 52-***** part of the CAR number but I don't think I have. Either the 52 part of the CAR number hasn't been stamped in but showing other m38s numbers on here they don't have that problem.

Or could it be a batch that was made for another army and stamped up with numbers for them?
I'm trying to get hold of the M38 book that everyone calls the m38 Bible to see if it mensions any other production runs.

I think I recall a friend of mine telling me there was another run of them in 1955 can anyone confirm this?

Cheers for all the help guys

Jim

[Owen Evans]

Originally Posted by James "Jim" Patterson

I must say though that with everything your saying it's looking like an American build/assembled one but just really strange to have a number stamped on the chassis.

If it is a US-built one, does the number stamped on the chassis match the number on the body plate (on the wheelhouse, behind the passenger seat), if you have it?

Originally Posted by James "Jim" Patterson

I'm trying to get hold of the M38 book that everyone calls the m38 Bible to see if it mensions any other production runs.

M38 Reference guide is a bit expensive, but for me worth every penny. I think Peter DeBella in the US still has some copies available.

Owen.

[James "Jim" Patterson]

Hi pal it had no plates atall when I bought it I'm just going through old photos to find the jeep in its original condition when I bought it. It had some parts in Greek camo wings and bonnet if I remember right.
I'm definitely going to get that book. I've heard from Mark Askew that a new print is out later in the year.

[Owen Evans]

Originally Posted by James "Jim" Patterson

I'm definitely going to get that book. I've heard from Mark Askew that a new print is out later in the year.

Now that's interesting. Wonder if it's just a reprint, or if it includes some new information too? I didn't get to see Mark at Newark last month (due to it's COVID-19 cancellation)…

Owen.

[charlie fitton]

Here is a sample of the Canadian ser no, not the best quality, but the shape and pattern work..


Another Canadian clue is this inspectors' acceptance stamp, again, blown up from my own poor picture..

[James "Jim" Patterson]

Originally Posted by charlie fitton

Here is a sample of the Canadian ser no, not the best quality, but the shape and pattern work..

The font looks exactly the same if my memory is correct.
Looking at the picture the number is on top of the chassis.

My number is on the side of the chassis near the front passenger RHS wheel

[James "Jim" Patterson]

Right guys an update. Just been over to the lock up now and I was wrong the number is on the drivers side between the grill and the bumper. See pics
In my eyes the 3 looks different I kkow it looks like a light stamp but it looks a diferent font to what I've been shown by another user on here of his CAR number.

Also there's signs of some welding but these don't look structural they look like maybe a bracket was welded on at some time. The chassis number doesn't seem to have any other numbers just those 5.

Also took a picture of the dash.

Please note that I have never drilled any holes on the dash but I have utilised some holes which were there for stuff like horn button and key ignition.
Like I said when I did this vehicle I was 20 so I did what I could without having a lot of knowledge about the vehicle.

Hope these shed some light and await your responce.

Cheers Jim

[James "Jim" Patterson]

It won't seem to let me upload the pics guys what am I doing wrong?

[Grant Bowker]

Check out http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19 The most frequent problem people seem to have is too large a file, either in MB or pixels.

[James "Jim" Patterson]

Won't let me upload the pics guys I'll try on my laptop in a bit

[James "Jim" Patterson]

This is what its saying when i try and upload pics

Your submission could not be processed because a security token was missing.

If this occurred unexpectedly, please inform the administrator and describe the action you performed before you received this error.

Any ideas guys ??

cheers

[Owen Evans]

Originally Posted by James "Jim" Patterson

This is what its saying when i try and upload pics

Your submission could not be processed because a security token was missing.

If this occurred unexpectedly, please inform the administrator and describe the action you performed before you received this error.

Any ideas guys ??

cheers

Jim,

I suspect your photos are too large. Try reducing them in size.

Owen.

[James "Jim" Patterson]

think ive done it guys check out the pics and let me know what you all think

[Owen Evans]

A nice looking M38, from what I can see. Can't tell beyond any doubt if it's US or Canadian though.

Originally Posted by James "Jim" Patterson

Also there's signs of some welding but these don't look structural they look like maybe a bracket was welded on at some time.

I assume you mean the 'half moon' bit of welding on the side rail just behind the front shock mount? Mine has those on both sides (see attached). It's where the front tubular cross member welds to the side rail.

Back to the number stamped into the side rail. You say your M38 had Greek camouflage; could it be that the Greek Army stamped their chassis up with the M38 body number? If so, that number could be your Jeep's original serial number. Possibly. Anyone out there have any experience of Greek Army M38's?

Regarding the dash, do the data plates (between the instrument panel and glove box) fix directly to the dash? Or are they secured to a separate plate which then screws to the dash? This was a mid-production change during the US M38 build, and may help to confirm your M38's origins.

Owen.

[James "Jim" Patterson]

Hi Owen,
when i get it out of the corner of the workshop ill get some more pics.

it has a plate that the data plates go on to and then screw on.
i remember buying all the repro plates as it didnt have any on atall.

it also has a big hole behind the data plates if my memory serves me right which at the time i was told it was to accommodate the arctic heater ???? but dunno if thats true.

ive looked all over and cant see any more numbers and as for the position of it i dunno why its there.
like you say is it a greek army thing as i didnt think the us stamped chassis.

is it just coincidence that the number falls in to the M38 CDN criteria?

thanks for all your help and knowledge

Jim

[Owen Evans]

Originally Posted by James "Jim" Patterson

it also has a big hole behind the data plates if my memory serves me right which at the time i was told it was to accommodate the arctic heater ???? but dunno if thats true.

That is correct; see attached excerpt from the personnel heater manual. Starting in September 1951, US-built M38's had this hole stamped out in the factory; prior to this, the hole would have to be cut out during installation of the personnel heater.

Owen.

[James "Jim" Patterson]

So what we really need to know now is anyone who's got a Greek m38 has it got a chassis number in the same place.

So is it looking like a US built one with that hole cut out? Or did the m38 CDN s have these too?

Owen your knowledge is very very informative it's been great getting in touch with you.
There used to be a guy near me called Bernard who had a lovely M38 and he was a good friend of both mine and my uncle.

I'll have to try get his number again

Thanks

Jim

[Al Nickolson]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Any ideas as to what the small rectangular metal box is tucked directly behind the blackout headlamp on the fender?

My first thought was the C-42 ATU, but the dimensions don’t look correct.

David

Sorry, I don't know what the fender box is.

[Owen Evans]

Originally Posted by James "Jim" Patterson

So is it looking like a US built one with that hole cut out? Or did the m38 CDN s have these too?

All the photos of the M38CDN I have seen all have the data plates mounted to a separate steel plate, so I presume they all had the heater hole cut-out?

Owen.

[James "Jim" Patterson]

Anyone else got any thoughts or information?