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  #1  
Old 06-04-03, 09:13
Vets_Dottir
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Default Zombies

Hi Everyone.

Tonite I got an email from a friend who introduced me to a (derisive) "term" I've never heard
before, in regards to those who served in WW2
but did not serve in "active duty" .

The term: "ZOMBIES"

I also learned that a "6 digit service record number" indicates that the person served but served in Canada, not overseas, usually because they personally CHOSE to remain here.

WW2: ...would have been the 3rd Battalion who stayed home in Canada???

Take Care.

Carman
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  #2  
Old 06-04-03, 20:07
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)'s Avatar
Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) is offline
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Default Complicated Subject

Haven't the time to go into the heart of the matter right now, but suffice to say, a ZOMBIE was one of those Canadians who donned the uniform (either voluntarily or through the draft) but refused to volunteer for Overseas Service. There were many. The enabling legislation was enacted in order to avoid pissing off Quebecers, who were laregly against the "Anglo" war (ignore the French connection), but it also allowed all others the same lattitude. In the fall of 1944, the 'Conscription Crisis' nearly brought down Mackenzie King's government, but he narrowly avoided defeat by finally ordering conscripts - or Zombies, all willing conscripts had already gone - overseas, but most of the 25,000 they sent never reached frontline units until the war was almost over. Approximately 5,000 hit the front, but very few actually saw combat and even fewer were killed or wounded.

Most of the dying had already been done by those who had indeed volunteered.

There's an important distinction to be made here, and I'll use my father as an example... he joined the service (RCAF in this case) and volunteered for Overseas Service, in late 1944. However, the war was over by the time he could have been sent. Hence, he never went overseas, but no, he WASN'T a Zombie... that term was and is used to define those who could have but declined the opportunity.

Next point... service numbers were in consecutive blocks, the blocks being allocated in advance to Militia Districts and recruiting offices. There is NO correlation between service numbers and one's choice of overseas or home service. A long-time member of the Canadian Army Overseas could easily have had a six-digit number, perhaps even consecutive to a long-time Zombie at home in Canada.

Lastly, Canadian Regiments never fielded more than one battalion per regiment... those militia units in particular activated in WW2 usually sent their "1st Battalion" overseas while their "2nd Battalion" was a recruiting shell at home for reinforcements (which themselves could get posted anywhere once overseas).

The whole situation regarding troop-staffing was a mess throughout the war, and it's a subject I'd like dearly to see explored in detail on MLU. Peter Ford offered to do it for me, then died shortly thereafter...

I'll get to it one of these days.

Does this help, Carmen?

G.
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  #3  
Old 06-04-03, 21:06
Vets_Dottir
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Thumbs up Yep... sounds complicated :-)

GEOFF:

Thank you so much. You've really helped to get rid of some : for me. It all really sounds complicated...or maybe COMPLEX is more like it. Wow. So much going on on so many different levels and so many different angles and aspects in Forces/Army and a War. A real challenge for the little grey cells to learn how it all "comes/came down/came together"

How were (identified) "Zombies" treated, in general, by "Non-Zombies" ?

((YOU SAID: The whole situation regarding troop-staffing was a mess throughout the war, and it's a subject I'd like dearly to see explored in detail on MLU. ))

Gee... maybe this post just got the ball rolling for the `troop staffing subject'?

Sargeants_Dottir
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  #4  
Old 06-04-03, 21:24
Alexander Borgia
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Default Try DND

No, not dungeons and dragons, but the Department of Defense site. They have posted the CMHQ reports in pdf form and the subject of reinforcements is well covered. www.dnd.ca and look in the history and heritage section.
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  #5  
Old 07-04-03, 16:26
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In January 1942, Canadians were told that they would be asked to release the govt from it's pledge not to impose conscription for overseas service. The vote was to take place in late April, so there was plenty of time for both sides to inflame public opinion.
The plebiscite split Canada along linguistic lines (again). In Ontario more than 80% voted "yes" while in Quebec 73% (85% of the French Canadians) voted "no". Partisan politics had dealt a deadly blow to Canadian unity.

The French-Canadian response:
The events of the late 1930's which transformed public opinion in most of Canada, provoked a very different response among French Canadians in Quebec. Their collective memories neither included identification with the British Empire not affection for the republican France. Few F.C. had volunteered to serve in the First World War and no one would have dreamed of arguing that their Canadian nation had "come of age" at the battle of Vimy Ridge. Remembrance Day, which was an important and solemn event in the rest of the country, was ignored in most of Quebec, where war memorials and Legion branches were usually signs of the presence of an English speaking minority.
French Canadian nationalist leaders including many prominent intellectuals, remained opposed to any form of Canadian involvement in a European war. Maxime Raymond, their parliamentary spokesmen, presented an anti war petition with thousands of signatures to the House of Commons. "Let us declare neutrality" which would see Canada supply food and essential materials to Britain, France and Poland.

Conscripts were kept at home for defence and never were suppose to go overseas to the combat areas. They were called Zombies by the active members of the forces. Though the "Zombies" could volunteer to go active which a lot of them ended up doing. But near the end of '44 early '45 the Army was desperately short of infantry soldiers that were trained and had to call on them from the "Zombies" in the end some 16,000 but only 2400 of them made it to the lines and were received well by the troops. This had to be done because of a severe miscalculation on the losses for the Italy and NWE campaigns that the Canadian Corps undertook.

Veterans that I've spoken to have differing opinions on the this subject. One said he "would have shot a Zombie before a German. They were fully trained but wouldn't come over and fight with us." To this day he still despises Zombies. This guy fought from D-Day all the way to Germany in the Canadian 3rd Div.

Another Veteran I know recently said this in response to my question about Zombies. "Much too late to carry the hate (or I should say, 'distaste'.) There were too many guys I knew, including a few in my own gang that were Zombies. The way I handled it when I got back was simply to tell myself that at least in one respect, and it's a major respect, I considered myself a better man than they were. I know one thing for sure; I would never have wanted to go through life knowing I wasn't man enough to fight for my country." His war was with the 5th Division in Italy, his wounds permanently removed him from the fighting there as well.
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  #6  
Old 07-04-03, 18:05
Vets_Dottir
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Smile Zombies

REGINA: Thank you for your informative reply. I sort of gathered that those thought of as "Zombies" would not be thought well of by the majority of those who went to War.

I always wonder at the reasons behind people's choices for "not going with the flow". I wonder just how many of those "Zombies" didn't opt for going to fight in the War because of a strong religeous feeling. You know the "Thou shalt not kill" part. I imagine that while some Zombies didn't give a flying you-know-what, and didn't want to risk harm or death, that many, many more Zombies suffered exremely mixed feelings and were very torn up in side. Like being torn one way by their desire to help the world and torn the other way by their commitment to God. It's my experience that a person with a profound belief in God, also has that same profound depth of feeling for humanity, and I imagine what hell they must have felt to not be helping, and to see their loved ones and friends who did go to War, wounded, or killed, and so on.

I'm not taking sides here. I'm interested in knowing the many reasons why a person would choose to not go to War when they cared so deeply for family, country, and world. In my perspective, now, after reading the answers to my Zombies query, I'm of the opinion that there probably just 2 types of Zombies.

1) Selfish-Self-Centered reasons, no feeling of connectedness to the rest of the world

2) An inner deep and abiding faith in God and Humanity that left no room for actions that would cause death to another human. (This type of "faith" has nothing to do with organized religeon and church, although they may well practice that group outward expression) And it's also my opinion that these people also suffered a tremendous feeling of grief and sadness to know and have their family and friends fighting and dieing. My sense is that, for them, dieing for their country and allies would have been ok for them. What would have been "wrong" for them, would have been if they personally took anothers life. Going to war and fighting would be a gaurantee that they'd probably take life.

I have no problem understanding and empathizing with those who fought, and all the those who felt everyone should have fought, and how deeply and bitterly betrayed they must have felt, and still feel, by those they knew as "Zombies".

I think that no one can win for losing no matter what side you take on this issue. I also think that except for those who just didn't give a flying #### that everyone felt betrayed and feelings ran/run deep.

Wow. Deep thoughts here. Now I have to go have a coffee and lighten up a bit!!! I hope I haven't p#ssed anyone off and if I did I hope you're still nice to me anyways!

Carman
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  #7  
Old 08-04-03, 07:52
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The ones I've talked to that have the greatest resentment are the ones who fought in The Schelt battles. They said there were many cooks, typists etc killed because they didn't know how to load their gun or chamber the round after loading. They also didn't know how to prime grenades either. From what I understand, if they did have any training with guns, they weren't the same ones used by that time of the war. They only saw weapons during training and that had been back in Canada years before. The Zombies on the other hand were fully and more recently trained but wouldn't come over and fight. There was a severe shortage of Canadian infantry by that stage and the fighting was very heavy. Guys I've talked to said the fighting on D-Day was not nearly as hard or long as it was during the Leopold Canal battle.....and these guys were on the first wave at Juno.
I guess seeing men killed, that shouldn't have been there is why they feel so strongly.
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  #8  
Old 08-04-03, 09:52
Vets_Dottir
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Quote:
Originally posted by Regina
The ones I've talked to that have the greatest resentment are the ones who fought in The Schelt battles. They said there were many cooks, typists etc killed because they didn't know how to..../...(and the Zombies who chose not to fight had the training)There was a severe shortage of Canadian infantry by that stage and the fighting was very heavy. Guys I've talked to said the fighting on D-Day was not nearly as hard or long as it was during the Leopold Canal battle.....and these guys were on the first wave at Juno.
I guess seeing men killed, that shouldn't have been there is why they feel so strongly.

Hi REGINA:

I think that if I were fighting over there because I chose to, and seeing and knowing that there were trained men "at home because they chose not to fight while those with no skill and training in weapons were victims and everyone suffered due to lack of enough force-power" that it would be impossible for me to NOT feel a deep and bitter sense of betrayal and as deep and harsh a sense of resentment.

I have a QUESTION that I'd really like someone to answer for me if they can and will:

If a person wanted to fight overseas in WW2 but had flat-feet, WOULD they have been denied overseas and action duty AND would they be given tasks "at home" and be allowed to "up their rank as they went" if qualified? (It's important for me to have a real answer for this one, so I hope I can get an answer

Thanks: Carman
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  #9  
Old 11-04-03, 21:37
Bill Alexander's Avatar
Bill Alexander Bill Alexander is offline
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Default Clarifications

Geoff,A couple of clarifications need to be made:
The service number question is confusing.
Quote:
Next point... service numbers were in consecutive blocks, the blocks being allocated in advance to Militia Districts and recruiting offices. There is NO correlation between service numbers and one's choice of overseas or home service. A long-time member of the Canadian Army Overseas could easily have had a six-digit number, perhaps even consecutive to a long-time Zombie at home in Canada.
According to C. Laws Regimental Numbers of the Canadian Army 1936-1960, blocks of numbers were allotted to units, but there was a distinction between CASF numbers and reserve (including NRMA) numbers. Overseas numbers had an alpha designator plus 5 or 6 numerals, but the number sequences stop at 199,999. Home service (reserve) army numbers have the appropriate Military District alpha designator, but all have 6 numerals. The reserve numerals start with the 400,000 sequence and run into the 600,000's. There is one MD that had 700.000, in contravention of orders.
These numbers were allotted in blocks to units, but there were also numbers for Depots and Training Centers.
Each MD also appears to have had blocks of numbers for the NRMA. For example in MD 5, NRMA District Depot 5 had the sequence E626001 through E631000. Other MD's, but not all, also had sequences designated for NRMA men.
There were also sequences set aside for conversion of NRMA men to Active Service force. These appear to have been allotted in each MD. For example, in MD 1 (Southwestern Ontario), the sequence A103588- A103687 and A11500 - A115499 were set aside for the conversion of NRMA to active service. In addition, A112950- A125349 were set aside for conversion of NRMA to GS in the UK. Again there are similar blocks of numbers set aside in most of the other MD's for the same purpose.
The high number sequences, 400,000 through 600,000 series were associated with the NRMA, even though they were for all reserve soldiers. A soldier with a high number would be easily identified or associated with being a ZOMBIE, even if he was a volunteer. To disquise this, the numbers were changed. (Many reserve enlistees volunteered for active service throughout the war. I have two service / pay books with two sets of numbers, one high, eg in the 400,000's and the other in the 100,000's.)


Quote:
Lastly, Canadian Regiments never fielded more than one battalion per regiment... those militia units in particular activated in WW2 usually sent their "1st Battalion" overseas while their "2nd Battalion" was a recruiting shell at home for reinforcements (which themselves could get posted anywhere once overseas).
There were several Canadian militia units that mobilized more than one battalion plus the reserve battalion. For example, the orbat for the active army in Canada in 1943 included the following units, 2nd Bn Canadian Scottish, 3rd Bn Regina Rifles, 3rd Bn Irish Fusiliers, 3rd Bn Edmonton Fusiliers, 3rd Bn QOR, 3rd Bn Royal Winnipeg Rifles, 3rd Bn Fusiliers Mont Royal, 3rd Bn Regiment de Maisonneuve. These regiments were active service, but in line with what you have said, were not for overseas service. Unlike WWI, where the Black Watch had fielded three battalions in the CEF, no Canadian regiment had two battalions in action.

Last edited by Bill Alexander; 12-04-03 at 13:20.
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  #10  
Old 15-11-06, 12:04
Vets Dottir
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Default Bump ...

Up to the top with ye, then ....

(just bringing this thread up from last page)



Karmen.
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  #11  
Old 16-11-06, 03:54
alvin5182 alvin5182 is offline
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Default Zombies

Gents:

Not to start a flame war, but in my house growing up in the 50s', we were not allowed to mention the name Maurice Richard (the Rocket) when talking hockey (as most Canadians did back then) owing to his lack of "commitment" and ........weak ankles (?) which enabled him to stay over here.

My dad was a 4th Cdn Armoured Div vet (6 yrs overseas-39-45). When I married, my father-in-law (Lincoln and Welland vet) expressed much the same disdain for the Rocket and others.

Water under the bridge, but the old boys had very strong feelings about this.

Al Davis
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Old 16-11-06, 04:15
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From my experience that is the same reaction obtained when the name Jane Fonda is uttered down in the 11th Province.
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  #13  
Old 16-11-06, 04:39
Vets Dottir
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Default Re: Zombies

Quote:
Originally posted by alvin5182
Gents:

Not to start a flame war, but in my house growing up in the 50s', we were not allowed to mention the name Maurice Richard (the Rocket) when talking hockey (as most Canadians did back then) owing to his lack of "commitment" and ........weak ankles (?) which enabled him to stay over here.

My dad was a 4th Cdn Armoured Div vet (6 yrs overseas-39-45). When I married, my father-in-law (Lincoln and Welland vet) expressed much the same disdain for the Rocket and others.

Water under the bridge, but the old boys had very strong feelings about this.

Al Davis
Hi Al,

Thats ok, I'm a Ma'am and I have a frying pan if I need it for a flamethrower

I've learned a lot about WW2 and other wars since joining MLU almost 4 yrs ago (wow, almost 4 years now!!! Can this be?) I understand the strength of the feelings more and more all the time, as I learn more, of those Vets for who those they thought of as "Zombies".

I understand that my own Dad wanted to serve overseas but was rejected for bad feet but was able to serve as homeservice. his brothers and sister served. I know one brother for sure went overseas and his sister to Newfoundland. I often wonder if overseas Vets thought of my Dad as a Zombie even though he was rejected?

I undertand that a lot of Vets feel just as strongly today as they did back then towards those they figured betrayed and abandonned them when they were most needed overseas and at all the improperly trained lives that could have been saved and so on. That has to be a bitter pill.

My kids father wore a uniform for the Korean war but served at home ... he was going blind.

Time for another coffee and a

Karmen
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