Ford 3 ton AA, Airborne usage

[Sean Dunnage]

Just interested in finding out if the Ford 3 ton 4X4 with the 40mm was used by the British or Canadian Airborne regiments.

Thanks in advance
Sean

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

If you mean the Ford F.30B Bofors, I have found no evidence yet of use by British forces. If you mean the Tractor + Towed Bofors, again no evidence yet. I would be interested if anyone has any other thoughts.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Sean,

As far as I know the Airborne regiments only used 20 mm AA guns.
Also, the 40 mm SP must have been far too bulky for transportation by glider.

Hanno

[Sean Dunnage]

Hanno I tended to agree until I read this in the following today.

In reading "Go To it" by Peter Harclerode The History of the 6th Airborne Division in WW2 the breakdown of the 2nd Airlanding Light Anti-Aircraft Battery RA goes like this. Eighteen 40mm Bofors, Forty Eight 20mm Oerlikon guns. In January 1945 it switched to a anti-tank unit using 6pdr Guns.

Off topic of the CMP Bofors I know but I was wondering if they would use a chopped down 15cwt to tow it. I have a drawing of a Jeep towing the gun but ammo storage would seem limited. Any thoughts?

[Mark W. Tonner]

Sean;

Just a note regarding "Go To It!" The Illustrated History of the 6th Airborne Division, page 77 - the paragraph that mentions that they were to arrive by sea on the following day - this is wrong - 2nd Airlanding Light Anti-Aircraft Battery, R.A., left the Division in January 1944.

I also can find no evidence, that British Airborne Forces ever used the 40mm Bofors, either towed or self-propelled.

In regards to the 6pdrs of the Anti-Tank Btys, R.A. (1943 to Jan 1945) or of the Anti-Tank Regt (From Jan 1945) - they were towed by Jeeps.

A typical Troop Organization:

Tp HQ: 2x MC's, 2x Jeeps, 2x Tlrs

2x Section: Each: 2x Jeeps, 2x 6pdrs

Yes your right, ammo storage was limited, will dig out first line scale and get back to you.

Hope all of the above helps.

Cheers

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

An airborne lightweight Bofors 40 mm gun is in the RCA Museum in Shilo, Manitoba. It is called a Bantam Bofors as I recall.

I am not aware of 1 or 6 AB Divs using 40mm guns, especially mounted on trucks.

The Bantam Bofors was probably a late-war or post-war development.

I know the British airborne used some 20mm AA guns. I have an original manual for one, plus some shell casings from the one that went through the Battle of Arnhem and was disabled at the end by the British. The other gun had been disabled early on in the fighting by enemy fire.

The RCA Museum also has a US 75 mm Pack Howitzer as used by the British and Canadian airborne during and after WWII.

An airborne used 25 Pounder is in the Bessborough Armoury in Vancouver with 15 Field Regt, RCA. Last time I saw it, it was covered with small parachute symbols for the times it was dropped. I believe it is a standard model 25 Pdr.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

This is turning into an interesting query! As a result of this I have been looking at my CMP listings.

CHEVROLET:

Z 5194641 to Z 5195730 Contract SM 2485
[1942] "TRUCK 15 CWT. 4 X 2 AA (20 M.M.)" C.15 E.g. Z 5194984!!

L 4999725 to L 4999726 Contract SM 2572 was originally for "LORRY 3 TON 4 X 4 DERRICK ARTICIZED"LORRY 3 TON 4 X 4 B/DOWN GAR WOOD CA5P OR HOLMES W45CBE OR CE
CRANES; BRKD-3 ARTICIZED] as per IWM photo KID 2928 BUT
IWM photo KID 3072 shows L 4999725 as being to Contract SM 6065...WERE THESE REBUILT UNDER SM 6065 TO LIGHT AA?
SM 6065:
H 5582513 to H 5582612 Contract SM 6065 "TRACTOR 4 X 4 LIGHT AA"

H 4999629 to H 4999724 Contract SM 2573 "TRACTOR 4 X 4 LT. AA ARTICIZED" C.30 or "C.30- 444-M LAAT 2" E.g. Serial # 2844122313 built 20 August 1942..E.G. H 4999629 IWM PHOTO KID 1416


FORD:
Z 5195731 TO Z 5196440; Z 5348761 to Z 5348960 Contract SM 2485 "Truck 15 cwt 4 x 2 (AA 20 mm) A.A. NO.1 MK. III" Model C101WF or F.15
E.g. Z 5193619 IWM PHOTO KID 3380; Z 5195764 IWM KID 2273 E.g. Z 5196119 Serial # 110574 built 18 January 1943 and Z 5195771 Serial # 113211 built 27 January 1943 were originally F-15421-M-VAN-6 with Van-6 body and were part of 2,000 C.15 and F.15 trucks converted by Dennis Motors Limited, Guildford, Surrey to 20-m.m. A.A. Gun platform with Vauxhall Motors Limited manufactured gun carriage-cum-mount. NOTE THAT THIS F.15 HAS BEEN PHOTOGRAPHED WITH THE GUN REMOVED; SEE GEOFF'S POSTING BELOW [15 April]



H 5327001 to H 5327600; H 5589105 to H 5589404 Contract SM2487 "Tractor 4x4 Lt AA" Model C29QF F30 A/A VARIANT e.g. IWM PHOTO KID 1968 C29Q
F30

H 6100201 to 6100448 Comtract SM 6111 "Tractor 4x4 Light AA" E.g. H6100380
assembled by Pearson’s, Liverpool 1944 Model C29Q? F60S

H 6100505 to 6101404 Contract SM 6143 "Tractor 4x4 Light AA" F60S

Z 6167447 Contract SM 5186 "Truck 15 cwt 4x4 AA 20 mm" C291WQ F.15A

H 6243634 to H 6244553 Contract SM 6143 "Tractor 4x4 Light AA" Model C29QF F.30?

However, I also found something interesting:
L 6153025 to L 6155024 Contract S 8189 "Lorry 3 ton 4x4 GS (Air Portable)" W0T6..this was the only officially Air Portable truck in the Chevrolet and Ford listings. There is no evidence YET that I have found that any of these CMPs were rebuilt in the Airportable role. Therefore may I make a suggestion that any AP Bofors guns were towed by Jeeps, Morris-Commercial Tractors [although only {6-pounder?] and 17-pounder A/T guns are known to have been towed, and possibly the AP Carriers. Could the W0T6 Air Portable version have been used inthe tractor role?

I am intrigued by that one-off F.15A...I wondered whether that was a prototype Airportable truck?[

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Sean;

Just a note regarding 6th (British) Airborne Division: Royal Artillery (RA) 1944 - 1945:

53rd Anti-Tank Regiment, RA (Worcestershire Yeomanry), 27 Oct 1943 to 2 Nov 1943
53rd Air-Landing Light Regiment, RA (Worcestershire Yeomanry), 3 Nov 1943 to 31 Aug 1945
3rd Air-Landing Anti-Tank Battery, RA, 9 Jul 1943 to 23 Feb 1945
4th Air-Landing Anti-Tank Battery, RA, 9 Jul 1943 to 23 Feb 1945
2nd Air-Landing Anti-Tank Regiment, RA, 24 Feb 1945 to 31 Aug 1945
2nd Air-Landing Light Anti-Aircraft Battery, RA, 26 May 1943 to 20 Feb 1944
2nd Forward Observer Unit, RA, May 1944 to Aug 1945

Cheers

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

A 20mm gun mounted on a Universal Mounting on the back of a CMP 15 Cwt, War Department number Z 5194984. Photo - Andy Morgan


A 20mm gun, possibly the same one as shown above, shown deployed on the ground. Photo - Andy Morgan



CMP page on 20mm 15 Cwt from AEDB Design Record

http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/20_mm_aa_guns.htm

For a long time people told Dave Ballard, the owner of a restored 15 Cwt AA truck (the ONLY one restored apparently) that these trucks never made it over to the Continent for action during WWII. I quashed that with a photo showing a bunch of the CMP 20 mm AA trucks on the beach in Normandy in July 1944. They appear to be British 7th Armoured Division from the markings. Unfortunately the example on my web page won't load full sized image at this time. Pictures of Dave's restored truck may be seen at:



http://www.mapleleafup.org/beltring01.html

Here is the British Airborne 20mm Polsten TOWED mounting. These were towed by jeeps. I found a restored one for my jeep - but could not afford it.


Mounting, Airborne, 20-MM, Gun No. 2 Mk. 2 Land Service (shown without the gun - illustration from the manual)

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Z 5194641 to Z 5195730 Contract SM 2485
[1942] "TRUCK 15 CWT. 4 X 2 AA (20 M.M.)" C.15..thanks Geoff!

This photo is of a prototype twin-Oerlikon mount that was normally fitted to ships of course. Now, the interesting bit is that these may have been all-GM of Canada production. The mountings were made by Regina Industries Limited in Regina, but the special tooling was made by the Oshawa Gun Plant. The truck I assume is a C60L, but where were the guns made? I assume Border City Industries Limited in Walker Road, Walkerville/Windsor.



Can I ask a stupid question and ask what the difference was between Oerlikons and Polstens?

[cmperry4]

I was looking at a Canadian D-Day beach photo showing a lot of vehicles, and there are what appeared to be four 15cwt with the 20mm Bofors AA guns mount, so I came to the forum to search for any references and voila - they are presumably some of those listed by D.Hayward in this thread.

[cmperry4]

I forgot to add, I presume this is the same photo referred to by Colin Macgregor Stevens in preceding post.

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

The Oerlikon 20mm gun was sold worldwide for anti-aircraft use. Made in Switzerland and under licence I believe. Most were used on ships - e.g. see USN firing at Kamikaze aircraft in documentary films Originated as a German design 1914.

The Polsten is a simplified version of the Oerlikon (far fewer parts 199 vs 250 and simpler design and cheaper i.e. GBP 60-70 vs Oerlikon GBP 320) developed by the Poles (thus the Pol in Polsten). Design gotten out of Poland in 1939. Finished in UK. Some reports say "sten" in Polsten is same as "Sten Company" but I seriously question this as I am not aware of such an armaments company. The Sten machine carbine was named after Shepherd & Turpin & Enfield but had no STEN company.

The Hispano-Suiza 20 mm was used mainly by the RAF, RCAF etc. as wing guns in Spitfires, Hurricane IIB, etc. USAAF also used some e.g. as nose guns on some fighters. The British and Canadian Armies used some as well. They had DIFFERENT ammunition from Oerlikon & Polsten. Canadian Skink tank was originally to have Hispanos but was changed to Polstens as I recall.

The Swedish Bofors seems to have focussed on 40 mm but also made some other e.g. 75mm. Some were made in Canada (Otis Elevator Co in Vancouver, BC) and some in USA etc. The guns of the trucks on beach above are NOT Bofors.

The guns on the CMP 15 Cwt trucks in Normandy - I identified that this is so far the only known photo of these purpose built CMP 15 Cwt with 20mm AA gun on the Continent which dispelled the standing myth in UK that they were never taken to France for action. I also identified the unit as being from the British 7th Armoured Division (Desert Rats.) The info by the owner of the only restored CMP 20mm unit (in UK) in the article in CONVOY had the wrong date (it was over a month AFTER D-Day) and wrong formation & Armd Div - I think article said 22nd Div.) I had spotted the photo, identified it, then sold the book containing the photo to the owner of the vehicle in UK.

Originally posted by Colin Macgregor Stevens

The Polsten is a simplified version of the Oerlikon (far fewer parts 199 vs 250 and simpler design and cheaper i.e. GBP 60-70 vs Oerlikon GBP 320) developed by the Poles (thus the Pol in Polsten). Design gotten out of Poland in 1939. Finished in UK. Some reports say "sten" in Polsten is same as "Sten Company" but I seriously question this as I am not aware of such an armaments company. The Sten machine carbine was named after Shepherd & Turpin & Enfield but had no STEN company.

As far as we can find out Polsten is simply the use of some letters from "Polish Type 20mm" or some such and "En" for Enfield again. Most likely it was cobbled-up as a good idea around the table having a mind to the origin of "Sten"

The Hispano-Suiza 20 mm was used mainly by the RAF, RCAF etc. as wing guns in Spitfires, Hurricane IIB, etc. USAAF also used some e.g. as nose guns on some fighters. The British and Canadian Armies used some as well. They had DIFFERENT ammunition from Oerlikon & Polsten. Canadian Skink tank was originally to have Hispanos but was changed to Polstens as I recall.

Looking at the drawings and by deduction only, it would seem the Hispano was solely designed and intended for aircraft installations where the infinite supply of cooling air allows a quite light-weight construction, and weight itself is of course very important in this application. The Oerlikons and Polstens are quite chunky by comparison.

Referring to the training manuals and description of operation here, which I admit to only glancing at so far, the Polsten operates much like a huge Sten and so is very simple. One fact that did stick in the mind from these original books (that Ballard has of course) is that the cartridge is fired 0.3" before it is fully chambered.

It talks of oiled rounds too which is usually a distinct disadvantage but a 20mm piece firing at the rate of a Bren is going some.

With the winter months coming I see I shall have to relieve Ballard of the books and make a close study to get my head around the exact detail.

The guns on the CMP 15 Cwt trucks in Normandy - I identified that this is so far the only known photo of these purpose built CMP 15 Cwt with 20mm AA gun on the Continent which dispelled the standing myth in UK that they were never taken to France for action. I also identified the unit as being from the British 7th Armoured Division (Desert Rats.) The info by the owner of the only restored CMP 20mm unit (in UK) in the article in CONVOY had the wrong date (it was over a month AFTER D-Day) and wrong formation & Armd Div - I think article said 22nd Div.) I had spotted the photo, identified it, then sold the book containing the photo to the owner of the vehicle in UK.

And what a gem that picture is, using the glass they are copiously marked, 21st AG, the Stags Head of 7th Armoured and therefore the Desert Rat too, then in a rare case of superimposed sinage the 73 of the 15th Isle of Man light AA regt is put onto the colours of the RA.

Through the net we have found regimental contacts in the IOM and Ballard is in contact, unfortunately their detailed history is in a now out of print book but we are looking.

R.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by Colin Macgregor Stevens


The Swedish Bofors seems to have focussed on 40 mm but also made some other e.g. 75mm. Some were made in Canada (Otis Elevator Co in Vancouver, BC) and some in USA etc.

Not entirely right. The 40 mm AA gun was the big export item for Bofors. But during ten years the Bofors Co made the same amount of these guns that Chrysler in USA did in a month or so.

For export Bofors sold 105 mm, 80 mm and 75 mm AA guns (and Naval & Coast Artillery guns up to 305 mm).

There were also 25 mm M/1932 Navy guns (downscaled version of the 40 mm). I am not sure if this type was sold to the Soviet Union in 1935 but will try to find out.

Bofors also made several thousands of the 20 mm M/1940 AA guns (see picture) but I think noone of these were sold for export.


Stellan

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

As mentioned before, the 20 mm gun mounting was designed by Vauxhall Motors Limited and mounted originally on the Bedford MW. The prototype was converted MW Z 41810?50, from the batch Z 4176716 TO 4183115, Contract T.8957. The Ministry of Supply asked Vauxhalls in June 1942 to work with the War Office Armaments Design Department. The Experimental Department in Luton produced the first 100 mountings for Allied and Dominion Governments. As you know, Vuxhalls then worked with Dennis in Guildford to convert Chev and Ford Van CMPs to the Light AA version. I assume that the War Office then sent drawings and samples to Ottawa for Ford and GM of Canada.

[Neil Ashley]

Regarding the use of these guns by the RAF, the Book 'The RAF Regiment at War' published in 2002 (ISBN 0-85052-852-6), records that Hispano guns were used on Ground Mounts in the anti-aircraft role. The mounts shown in the pictures appear to be the standard type used for other 20mm guns featured else where in this thread. This obviously must have allowed for standardization within the RAF on ammunition and spares.

The book goes on to record that when the guns were in use on Sciliy, the use of ball rounds led to more casualties to personnel and aircraft on neighbouring airfields than did the enamy air attacks (what goes up must come down!). I assume ammunition types were changed later.

Regarding the use of 20mm Guns by the Army, am I correct in saying that every Machine Battalion had a platoon of 20mm Guns untill shortly after D Day? I was under the impression that they were withdrawn at the same time as the as the tank mounted version's due to allied air supremacy.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Weight 220 kg. Magazine fed. 60 rounds. 570 rounds/min. Muzzle velocity 880 m/sec. Sights A for 300 - 500 km/h target speed. B 400-600 km/h.