Australian ? M.T.CATG.

[Rich Payne]

Hello, My first post on the forum. I hope you don't mind me barging in with a question.

My primary interest is Norton Motorcycles and I have acquired, from Australia, a copy of the Instruction manual for the "Big 4" SWD outfit. It is actually a civilian handbook overstamped with contract no. C2925 which was the last of the pre-war contracts.

The cover has the following handwritten information:-

"PROVISION COPY" and "M.T. CATG. No.3032."

Can anyone give any further info. as to the significance of these markings?

I had rather assumed that a pre-war WD contract would have been for the British Army. Were the "Big 4s" issued to Australian Forces and is it possible that the booklet reached Australia via the Middle East ?

Rich.

[Tony Smith]

From the AWM site:

"Darwin, Northern Territory. August 1942. This motor cycle rider was part of the review of mechanised cavalry units conducted by Major General Edmund Herring (later Lieutenant General Sir Edmund Herring). Note the rifle behind his saddlebags, suggesting that he is a scout or a despatch rider. His motor cycle is a Norton. "
AWM Pic 150171

[Tony Smith]

The AWM also has in it's collection this Norton, with the following description:

"Physical description: Steel; Norton 'Big 4' motorcycle with sidecar. Exterior painted in Khaki Green Number 3. Fully operational including drive to sidecar wheel. Missing sidecar mudguard lamp. Spare wheel is an incorrect type. The vehicle has a mileage reading of 95,623. Type information. Crew: 3; Powerplant: 633cc SV single-cylinder engine.
Summary: This motorcycle was part of the first batch delivered from the United Kingdom to the Australian Army in 1939. This type of general purpose motorcycle with sidecar was used by the Australian Army. It was suitable for off road terrain because it was fitted with a drive shaft to the sidecar wheel. The sidecar was fitted in various configuations including the provision of a 3 inch mortar

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Rich Payne
My primary interest is Norton Motorcycles and I have acquired, from Australia, a copy of the Instruction manual for the "Big 4" SWD outfit. It is actually a civilian handbook overstamped with contract no. C2925 which was the last of the pre-war contracts.

The cover has the following handwritten information:-

"PROVISION COPY" and "M.T. CATG. No.3032."

Can anyone give any further info. as to the significance of these markings?

Rich,

This Contract, C2925, was for 315 Big Four combinations, WD no's C399012 to C399326. Delivered to Central Ordnance Depot, Chilwell, Notts, the order was completed 30th May 1939. It is not unusual to see a civvy manual initially, that is why it is marked "provision copy" or "provisional", meaning, "this will do, until we produce a specific military version"!

MT CATG. No. 3032, means Motor Transport Catalogue No., refering to the publication. Books or manuals were often listed as Chilwell No., because all the vehicle publications originated there.

It may well have gone to Australia, I know of one of these Nortons there, the owner, Wayne is on this forum. He will probably tell you more.

Richard

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
From the AWM site:

This motor cycle rider was part of the review of mechanised cavalry units
His motor cycle is a Norton. "
AWM Pic 150171

Tony,

This Norton solo, is model 16H, a 500cc machine.

Richard

[Rich Payne]

Thanks for the prompt replies chaps. I might have guessed that the abbreviations are quite mundane. I suppose I was rather hoping, as with all these things, that it would provide some connection with the end-user. Are there any photos of sidecars with Australian Units ?

Interestingly, the booklet also details the applicable Frame and Engine numbers for the contract which is information that does not appear in Orchard & Madden's "bible" or in the other lists which I have from the factory records. The contract comprised frames 103100 - 103199 and 103700 - 103914 with engines numbered 93000 - 93314

According to the factory ledgers, the last machine was delivered on 19/8/1939

The Big 4 contract details are overprinted beside other cancelled overprints relating to the 16H contract C3655 for frames 104700 - 106300 and engines 95100 - 96700 which were built later (the last one on 7/10/1939)

While I'm on the subject, does anyone know how the "C" numbers were allocated ? Were they issued and painted on at the factory, sequential to frame numbers or were they added at Chilwell when a whole batch arrived, with no account being taken of frame numbers ?

I've done a "best guess" on my 1939 16H but it would be interesting to know if there is any chance of accuracy.

Rich

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Rich Payne
Orchard & Madden's "bible" .............According to the factory ledgers, the last machine was delivered on 19/8/1939

While I'm on the subject, does anyone know how the "C" numbers were allocated ? Were they issued and painted on at the factory, sequential to frame numbers or were they added at Chilwell when a whole batch arrived, with no account being taken of frame numbers ?

Rich,

I see you have Chris Orchards book, I took the completion date from that, so it seems it is not strictly correct if you have seen otherwise in factory records.

The C no's were usually applied on reciept at the Ordnance Depots. I know that some vehicles were out of sequence with chassis numbers, Bedford being one. My BSA WM20 is in line with frame number. You can only find this out by going through Key Cards at what used to be the records at Beverley museum, but now held by the RLC Museum, Deepcut.

Richard

[Rich Payne]

Richard,

All credit to Chris Orchard for the research he did. He does state that the information in the official records is often conflicting.

I haven't actually ploughed through the factory ledgers but have some information extracted from the pre-war records by someone with an interest in that area. The pre-war WD bikes were built alongside the civilian models. There is a story that the books were rescued from a skip at Andover when Nortons collapsed but sadly most of the wartime records do not seem to have survived.

Am I right in thinking that the "keycards" date to the transition to the post-war system and would only show vehicles still on strength at that time ? My 16H appears to have been abandoned prior to Dunkirk so presumably wouldn't appear.

I suppose others from the batch may have survived so may give some clue. Do you know how they are categorised? Are they accessible to the public ?

Rich

[Wayne Henderson]

Hi Richard and Rich,
Having collected and researched my Big 4 I have found out a few facts and a lot of heresay.

Norton made 3,300 outfits (The Classic Motorcycle Nov 1989) but I have read elsewhere there were over 4000 produced.

The Orchard/ Madden book is excellent but I think the numbers may be off, I'm not sure because I wasn't there.

There is a Norton Big 4/ 16H website run out Holland(?), they may be of some help.

My information leads me to think that the Pommies gave Australia around 200 Big 4s after they became obselete with the arrival of the jeep in the U.K... 1942. I can't see Mother England giving bikes to Australia in 1939 as they needed them more than us!

Of these 200, no chairs/AA bodies were included. Wooden boxes were fitted here in OZ similar to the WLA combinations.

The bike I have came from a station in the North, way way north and also some of the sidecar frames I collected. This fits with some of the stories about Nortons used to pull bomb trains at airfields in the north of Australia. There was another up in Rockhampton Qld many moons ago that was supposed to have been found near an old airfield.

There are 10 other Big 4 Nortons that I know of in Australia but not all are complete or have a sidecar chassis... lets see what turns up at "The Year of the Motorbike" next year.

I have an original drivers hand book somewhere, I check to see if it's stamped.

[servicepub (RIP)]

I have been doing a fair amount of research into motorcycles in the Canadian army but have not yet run across a copy of Chris Orchard's book. Can anyone advise where to obtain such a beast?

[Rich Payne]

Hello Wayne,

Thanks for your interesting answer. Perhaps as well as obsolete bikes, you got lumbered with out of date handbooks as well and the British kept the later books for themselves. I was wondering why a 1939 book should have been in Australia as it was for a small contract of 300 odd machines and I know that at least one of them turned up here in Belgium having been left behind in 1940

Big 4 outfits saw action during the Arras counter-attack and based on the numbers involved with a motor battalion, I would assume that most of the production up to that date was with the BEF.

I suspect that Classic Motorcycle was never quite the same after the departure of Bob Currie. He was "there" and had the trade contacts to verify things. The figure of 3300 "of this type" could mean with a passenger carrying body. The parts book for Contract C7576 (1141 machines) says it was for box-bodied chairs although this is probably not correct because some of the census numbers from this contract appear in period photos on passenger outfits.

I've done a quick tot-up on my lists and come out at 4623. Bearing in mind that frame numbers went from S1000 to S5521 + a limited amount of pre-war production, this would seem to be about right.

How were the outfits used for towing ? have you found evidence of towing equipment ? I know the RAF used 16H outfits as transport around airfields.

I am in quite close contact with Rob van den Brink who runs the WD Norton website (We are geographically neighbours by Australian standards - just three hours drive or so). In fact, Rob and I seem to be spurring each other on in the search for information. I think we both have the feeling that within a few years, it will be even harder to research. The website is at http://home.tiscali.nl/wd16h/ if anyone is interested.

I would be keen to know the references on your paperwork. Does Rob have your machine details ?

Servicepub, The book we have been referring to is "British Forces Motorcycles 1925-45" by C.J. Orchard & S.J. Madden ISBN 0-7509-0777-0 published in 1995 by Alan Sutton. It is now out of print (a revised edition is promised for next year) A specialist bookshop here in Belgium had a number of copies last time I was there. Let me know if you are stuck. By the way, I am looking forward to your forthcoming motorcycle book. The Canadian Forces seem to have used Nortons after the British mostly swapped to BSAs and Matchlesses. I hope there are lots of pictures !

Rich

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Rich Payne

Am I right in thinking that the "keycards" date to the transition to the post-war system and would only show vehicles still on strength at that time ? My 16H appears to have been abandoned prior to Dunkirk so presumably wouldn't appear.

I suppose others from the batch may have survived so may give some clue. Do you know how they are categorised? Are they accessible to the public ?

Rich,

You are absolutely correct regarding Key Cards. I was assuming the machine was carried on to the postwar numbering, but of course they were declared obsolete early on in the war. There is a photo of one in Chris's book serving with the Free French Army. The ones in Australia, may well have served in North Africa region and taken back to Australia from there.

There are record cards for some vehicles which consist of contract details, listing dates recieved and how many, contract number, WD numbers, from and to, and sometimes the cost of vehicle. The ones I have actually seen copies of were held by the Tank Museum at Bovington. Contact Janice Tait, the librarian there. As there are only about 11 or 12 contracts for Big 4 combos it should be a relatively easy task, if they have these contract cards.

In the copy of WD Census numbers that I am looking at, the contact your book belongs to is the only one without frame numbers listed. It appears to be the second contract for combos.

Richard

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally posted by Rich Payne
Servicepub, The book we have been referring to is "British Forces Motorcycles 1925-45" by C.J. Orchard & S.J. Madden ISBN 0-7509-0777-0 published in 1995 by Alan Sutton. It is now out of print (a revised edition is promised for next year) A specialist bookshop here in Belgium had a number of copies last time I was there. Let me know if you are stuck. By the way, I am looking forward to your forthcoming motorcycle book. The Canadian Forces seem to have used Nortons after the British mostly swapped to BSAs and Matchlesses. I hope there are lots of pictures !

Rich

I would be grateful for information on obtaining a copy of this book.
My book will actually be a picture book. I am at 103 pages with 210 photos so far. The scope of the book covers the first Canadian military use of a motorcycle in 1908 and touches on WWI, between the wars, lots on WWII and post-war, right up to the present.
Canada was a big user of the Norton, known to Canadians as the "snortin' Norton" much to the dismay of the company who complained to Canadian authorities. Interestingly, very few BSA's (or James') could be found in the Cdn Army while some Matchless and a small number of triumphs were used. The Harley WLC and the Norton 16H were the most common bikes in use overseas while, in Canada , it was the Indian and the H-D. I will include sections on the MC Display Teams (Sigs 1937), Provosts (1955) and Sigs (1967) as well as sections on helmets and clothing.

[Rich Payne]

Richard,

Thanks for the Tank Museum suggestion. I will contact them.

I have really rather confused my own thread here because I have gone off at a tangent regarding the census numbers. My particular interest there is my 16H (Frame number W4216 from Contract C5109, the first of the Wartime contracts).

I have calculated what I think the number should have been but it would be nice to confirm it. That said, machines with the BEF mostly appear in photographs without the front number plate which is where it was usually displayed on new machines at that time. Numbers applied to the tank seem to be a bit later. There were rather more 16H contracts but not impossible.

Rich

[Rich Payne]

Originally posted by servicepub
I would be grateful for information on obtaining a copy of this book.
My book will actually be a picture book. I am at 103 pages with 210 photos so far. The scope of the book covers the first Canadian military use of a motorcycle in 1908 and touches on WWI, between the wars, lots on WWII and post-war, right up to the present.
Canada was a big user of the Norton, known to Canadians as the "snortin' Norton" much to the dismay of the company who complained to Canadian authorities. Interestingly, very few BSA's (or James') could be found in the Cdn Army while some Matchless and a small number of triumphs were used. The Harley WLC and the Norton 16H were the most common bikes in use overseas while, in Canada , it was the Indian and the H-D. I will include sections on the MC Display Teams (Sigs 1937), Provosts (1955) and Sigs (1967) as well as sections on helmets and clothing.

I will mail the chap and see if he still has copies. Failing that, I will be at the Stafford Classic bike show after Easter and there are usually a couple of secondhand ones. How urgent is it ?

Not surprised that a traditional (read Old fashioned) company like Nortons didn't like the nick-name. They used "Unapproachable" and "The World's best Roadholder" as advertising slogans for half a century. "Snortin' " is something one would expect from recalcitrant livestock rather than a quality motorcycle !

Rich

[servicepub (RIP)]

Located a copy of this elusive title on Abebooks.com and expect it within the week. Thanks for all offers of help - indicative of the community found here at MLU