T-16 Vehicle Identification / History

[horsa]

Finally have taken delivery of one of Rod Shaver's T-16s that needs to be completly overhauled. Before striping it though, I hand sanded the sides to get the British WWII registration number which was partially showing though beneath the single overcoating of paint applied by the Swiss after the war.

I'm interested in trying to get get a basic history of the vehicle if this is possible. Things like the date of production or delivery date, the British unit(s) it served with and where it served during the war.

Information if anyone can be of help includes:

Number 5399 stamped into the leading edge of the armour where the gunner would sit.

Number FS 5488 stamped into the lift bracket on the driver side. Also a USA ordnance flaming bomb.

Registration Number TD 97377 painted in white on each side of the upper hull.

Many thanks in advance.

[alleramilitaria]

and it was running when last parked

I know of 200 to 500 T 16's were made at the Somerville FM,company in Massachusetts, Right Down the Street from me


Cheers BIG MIKE

[G166UC]

Dave,
The first number you found on the hull front edge is the serial number of the vehicle. I didn't know it could be read on the vehicle.
Got your message that you arrived ok, but I heard that you had an accident! After you got home and started moving things around!! I will call you later-- Rod

[horsa]

Hey Rod,

Nothing serious but it could have been. Someone took one of the R-Clips out of the crane I was using to move the rear axle/differential assembly. It was there when I unloaded but gone a few hours later. Allowed the pin that holds the hook and load to the boom to back out and thus dumped about 1000 pounds of metal in a split second. Teeth in the sprocket grabbed my elbow on its way to the ground.

Decided to regroup and finish moving everything down the hill the next day. Everything is OK though and no parts were damaged.

Like we used to say in the moving business, skin and bones grow back but scrapes in the furniture are forever.

Back on the numbers...the hull armor number was clear once wire wheeled but no trace of the month and year stamps like your track has so don't know if it was ever present. Vehicle would be about 1600 ahead of yours in the production sequence if the numbers are in true manufacture order.

[G166UC]

Dave,
That would be about right. Remember, they started with serial number 1001. I would say yours was made early in Jan-Feb. 1944. It was definitely a veteran of NW Europe. Hopefully someday we can find some pictures with our vehicle nu mbers on them in some combat photo.
Dave Demarro said you broke yoour arm! I hope you are OK.
Rod

[horsa]

Told him I chipped the bone. No big deal but sure could have been. I'm only pissed that the crane was sabotaged.

[alleramilitaria]

i think the best example of a T-16 here in north america is at the victory museum in indiana. if i remember it looks like it was just released by the british. so swiss add ons. the museum there is easy to work with and may be able to send you pictures of it.

here is a poor pic

[G166UC]

Dave,
You need to look a little closer at the one in Auburn. It is in pretty poor shape in the back, and is missing a lot of stuff. Alan Coors T-16 at the Virginia Military vehicle museum is the most complete one I have seen.
However, the Windsor carrier at the Auburn museum is absolutely incredible. Totally complete and original.
Rod

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by horsa
I'm interested in trying to get get a basic history of the vehicle if this is possible. Things like the date of production or delivery date, the British unit(s) it served with and where it served during the war.

David,

Great to hear another T16 will be restored. The following threads may be of interest to you:
- Wartime T16 pictures
- surviving T16s
- Carrier, 4.2 inch Mortar (T16)
- Picture ID challenge: T16's near Caen
- Brief History of the T-16 Carrier

Hope this helps,
regards,
Hanno
http://www.mapleleafup.nl/t16carrier/

[Neil Ashley]

I would imagine that any vehicle shipped to the Swiss was probably from unissued stocks.

Certainly most if not all the surviving T16's in the UK saw no war-time service. I am assuming that the British Army would not have bothered rebuilding T16's post war?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Neil Ashley
I would imagine that any vehicle shipped to the Swiss was probably from unissued stocks.

Certainly most if not all the surviving T16's in the UK saw no war-time service. I am assuming that the British Army would not have bothered rebuilding T16's post war?

In 1951 Switzerland selected the T16 as their first armoured infantry vehicle. A total of 302 were bought from the "manufacturer in England" [sic - more likely a surplus vehicle dealer] for a unit price of 7.400 Swiss Francs. The T16 or Pz Begl Fz UC (which stands for Panzer-Begleitfahrzeug Universal Carrier) was in service from 1953 until 1963.

Do you recon Britain still had unissued T16 stocks in 1951? I can imagine they had first had a few good years of service in the British Army before being declared surplus. We do know there were a number of modifications carried out on the Swiss T16s, but I have no information whether these were carried out in conjuntion with a rebuild, and if this was carried out in the UK or in Switserland.

H.

[Neil Ashley]

Hanno

Hopefully others will comment, but very few if any T16's saw service with the British Army in North West Europe.

If we assume that all the Canadian vehicles stayed on the continent, that only leaves stocks in UK Depots. Some were used for a short period for training in the UK after WW2, but most must have been surplused. I have a Sales Catalogue some where at home which lists T16's in a post war sale. The Pounds Scrap Yard vehicles were also I believe realeased duruing the 50's.

Quite if the Swiss vehicles came from WD or dealer stocks I will leave to others to comment on.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Neil Ashley
Hopefully others will comment, but very few if any T16's saw service with the British Army in North West Europe.

This corresponds with what little facts I have.

If we assume that all the Canadian vehicles stayed on the continent, that only leaves stocks in UK Depots. Some were used for a short period for training in the UK after WW2, but most must have been surplused. I have a Sales Catalogue some where at home which lists T16's in a post war sale. The Pounds Scrap Yard vehicles were also I believe realeased duruing the 50's.
Quite if the Swiss vehicles came from WD or dealer stocks I will leave to others to comment on.

A likely scenario would be that surplus T16 stocks were bought by dealers off the UK MoD, stored for a few years, and then sold off to the Swiss (probably at the point where they seriously considered scrapping them!). It would be interesting to know if these were really still "in the crate", which is not at all impossible seeing that a small number crated of Universal Carriers (not T16s) came up for sale in the 1980s. Wasn't it in a Wheels & Tracks ad by the Crooks Borthers?

H.

[Neil Ashley]

Hanno

The attached is a page from a 1957 Ruddington Sale's catalogue.
The actual vehicles were located at No.43 Armoured Vehicle Depot at Haralescott near Shrewsbury.

Also included in the sale were 101 Universal Carriers, 90 Windsor's, 2 Daimler Armoured Cars and one Humber Armoured Car.

I would imagine that these must have been some of the very last Carriers released.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Neil Ashley
The attached is a page from a 1957 Ruddington Sale's catalogue.

Neil, excellent, thanks!

Indeed I am surprised to see a substantial number of Carriers (were there any more T16's besides the nine in lot 1665?) being actioned as late as 1957. Possibly these were some kind of war reserve, or ex-territorial army?

What it does learn us is that those T16s listed had been in actual use by the British Army, since they all have post-war census numbers in the ZT and ZV ranges.

H.

[Neil Ashley]

Hanno

There were no more T16's in the sale.
I have seen picture's of T16's in post war use before, but only for training.

Carrier use post war would I assume, have been limited to the more specialist roles such as medium machine gun carrier and gun towing. That is presumably why so many Windsor Carriers were retained so late.

I assume the £240.00 to have been the successfulll bid on this lot.
The universal's seem to have sold for £25.00 each.

[Neil Ashley]

Hanno

In Windscreen magazine number 91, John Marchant also makes reference to No. 75 Armoured Vehicle Depot at Turweston airfield near Brackley. This was a satellite site for Silverstone and was used to store thousands of AFV's. "These included Lynx Scout Cars, M5A1 Stuarts, C15TA, half tracks and Carriers of all types". "Some vehicles were new and still boxed, whilst others were driven the six miles from Brackley station".

" Much of the armour in Pounds came from Turweston as did many of the T16's and Windsor Carriers in collectors hands today, being sold out of service during 1954/5".

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Neil,

Thanks for those interesting snippets of information!

Hanno

[Rod Stout]

I too have purchased a Rod Shaver T16. It appears we have chosen new careers. Mine is nearing mechanical completion including new transmission, brakes, bogie seals & bearings, new front spindles pressed into brackets, engine access panels, paint and the list keeps growing. Hope to have it running by march. While the exterior may be canadian, interior will be Swiss until I can get information on tooll boxs, their mounts, gun mounts etc. I have no idea how to restore the rear interior. My next delima is acquiring solid bogies and recasting the rubber tires with urethane. Do any of the members have experience or information reguarding this repair?

Rod Stout

[Hanno Spoelstra]

An update of this thread by quoting from an earlier thread Wartime T16 pictures (which has gone missing due to a database glitch). Corrected the information and added a page from the book Arsenal of Democracy: The American Automobile Industry in World War II by Charles K. Hyde. This gives some insight in the build rate of T16 built at Ford's Somerville plant near Boston, Massachusetts, USA.

Ford Motor Co. built 13,893 T16 from 1943 through 1945:

• S/N 1 through 1000 = USA 40113055 through 40114054 ("Prefix FS assigned to serial numbers 1 thru 1000.")
• S/N 1001 through 6175 = British to assign number
• S/N 6176 through 9923 = USA 40138753 through 40142500
• S/N 9924 through 14443 = USA 40123864 through 40128383 (some apparently cancelled)

Also see the thread surviving T16s for pictures of data plates with serial numbers.