Matchless G3L

Keith Orpin · #1 19-02-07, 14:02

I know it's a bit off topic, but my wife (bless her) has just bought me another project to play with. It's an ex WD 1941 Matchless G3L.
Frame number 20660
Contract number C9841
Delivery date 15/02/41
Engine number 41-G3L-51384
I'll post some pictures soon, but one of the main reasons for mentioning it here, is that I have read recently, that the Canadian Army used these during WW2. Would anyone know if the contract number above was for the Canadians ?
The bike is 95% complete, but requires minor odds and ends sorting
I look forward to your replies
Keith

Alex Blair (RIP) · #2 19-02-07, 14:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith Orpin
I know it's a bit off topic, but my wife (bless her) has just bought me another project to play with. It's an ex WD 1941 Matchless G3L.
Frame number 20660
Contract number C9841
Delivery date 15/02/41
Engine number 41-G3L-51384
I'll post some pictures soon, but one of the main reasons for mentioning it here, is that I have read recently, that the Canadian Army used these during WW2. Would anyone know if the contract number above was for the Canadians ?
The bike is 95% complete, but requires minor odds and ends sorting
I look forward to your replies
Keith

Keith
I have the drivers handbook but there is no contract # on it..but Canadians did use them..

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) · #3 19-02-07, 14:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith Orpin
I know it's a bit off topic, but my wife (bless her) has just bought me another project to play with. It's an ex WD 1941 Matchless G3L.
Frame number 20660
Contract number C9841
Delivery date 15/02/41
Engine number 41-G3L-51384
I'll post some pictures soon, but one of the main reasons for mentioning it here, is that I have read recently, that the Canadian Army used these during WW2. Would anyone know if the contract number above was for the Canadians ?
The bike is 95% complete, but requires minor odds and ends sorting
I look forward to your replies
Keith

Spoiled rotten you are.

Keith Orpin · #4 19-02-07, 15:32

Geoff,
It's an early birthday present. As I am 50 in May this year she wanted to buy me something special. It just so happened that I knew a guy who happened to be thinking of selling his, hence a deal was struck. Pictures coming shortly
Keith

Alex Blair (RIP) · #5 19-02-07, 15:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Spoiled rotten you are.

Jif..
His wife trippled his life insurance policy,added double indemnity,and bought him a motor cycle..
Tell you anything..?

Keith Orpin · #6 19-02-07, 17:11

Alex,
Now you come to mention it.....
Who said anything about me riding it on the road ? It comes with a rather nice trailer, which I can tow to the shows. Joking aside, I did pass my motorcycle test years ago, so I am looking forward to riding it
Keith

Pete Ashby · #7 19-02-07, 20:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Spoiled rotten you are.

And he gets all his dinners cooked as well !!

Jealous of Wantage

PS
Keith do you still have that rather natty white scarf with the black tassels ??

rampant rivet · #8 19-02-07, 21:57

Great looking bike Keith

I have a 1940 Norton 16 H and was also wondering if my machine had been used by Canadian forces as they used a fair number.
My particular bike was last R.E.M.E. overhauled in 1952 !! which is a long service life for a 16H.

Frame No.17154

Contract No. C6127

Census No. 4195456

I am sure both of us would be very gratefull to anyone who can shed any light on the history of our M/cs

Thats what I calll a Birthday present ! its mine next week and have been promised a wiring loom for my C15

aren't wifes wonderfull !!!

Cheers RR.

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) · #9 19-02-07, 22:20

Even if neither was issued to Canadian troops, it's quite likely they were stolen by Canadians at some point in their service career...

Quote:

Originally posted by rampant rivet
Great looking bike Keith I have a 1940 Norton 16 H and was also wondering if my machine had been used by Canadian forces as they used a fair number.
My particular bike was last R.E.M.E. overhauled in 1952 !! which is a long service life for a 16H.

Frame No.17154

Contract No. C6127

Census No. 4195456

I am sure both of us would be very gratefull to anyone who can shed any light on the history of our M/cs

Thats what I calll a Birthday present ! its mine next week and have been promised a wiring loom for my C15 aren't wifes wonderfull !!!

Cheers RR.

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) · #10 19-02-07, 22:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Pete Ashby
Keith do you still have that rather natty white scarf with the black tassels ??

Not sure I want to follow this through to it's obvious conclusion, old bean...

Keith Orpin · #11 20-02-07, 14:06

Quote:

Keith do you still have that natty white silk scarf with black tassels

Pete, considering how long ago that was, your memory still serves you well
Geoff, Pete is refering to the days I used to ride motorbikes, nearly 30 years ago !
RR. Thanks for the kind words, and yes, if anyone out there has anything which may help us, please post it. Where did you get the pannier bags from on your Norton, as I have the frames, with the exception of the top frame,but no bags. Do you know if this is the same on all the D/R machines. Mine is missing and I may need a few dimensions
Regards
Keith

rampant rivet · #12 20-02-07, 18:15

Hi Keith
Regarding the pannier bags, I dropped lucky with those as they are NOS and in mint cond, I swapped them for some jeep spares along with he blackout cover for the headlight. Unfortunately the guy only had one pair and those had been stored in his attic for donks.
I have talked with Allied Forces the canvas people regarding reproducing these rare items using my pair as a pattern though I think the cost will be too high, I have to pick up my door tops for my C15 from them at the Malvern show in March and will have a chat with them again.
Heres a couple of pics of the bags can give you measurement if you need em.

RR.

rampant rivet · #13 20-02-07, 18:18

16H pannier

RR.

rampant rivet · #14 20-02-07, 18:31

Rear frame

The bags I believe were the same regardless make of machine.

RR.

rampant rivet · #15 20-02-07, 18:34

Heres another veiw of rear frames. hope images are of some use.

RR.

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) · #16 20-02-07, 19:21

Would it not be de rigeur to substitute P37 large packs for them? Field expedient and all that.

rampant rivet · #17 20-02-07, 23:23

I have seen the 37 pat large packs used as pannier bags but they are not correct and look naff compared to the original spec ones, plus they do not fit properly to the frames as original panniers have spring clips fitted to the bottom and reinforced leather corners with press studs to the top corners.

RR.

Rich Payne · #18 20-02-07, 23:41

I don't have any information on Matchless uses but based on my observation of period photos of Nortons, it seems unlikely that any complete contracts went to any one destination. Census numbers quite close to each other can turn up in completely different theatres.

Norton contract C.6127 covered C4192303 - C4196302

I have a (poor) copy pinched from ebay of C4193108, a 16H in Canadian service taken in Ashtead Surrey.

C4194083 appears in IWM H7735 undergoing maintenance. I believe from a series showing a British Driving school.

The closest that I can come to C4195456 is of C4194780 on Malta, complete with distinctive camouflage.

At the time when the C.6127 bikes first went into service, the canvas WD panniers were yet to be developed. The retro-fitting of pannier bags and pillion seat conversion sets to Nortons was dealt with under D.M.E. Circular B.155 dated 31/3/42.

Incidentally, RR does your machine have a clamp-on drive side pillion footrest lug ?

Rich

Keith Orpin · #19 21-02-07, 17:05

RR
Many thanks for the images of your pannier bags, you indeed were very fortunate to come across them. I'm sure as the year goes by, I'll come across a pair.I would be interested to know if Allied forces can reproduce them, so if you do get chance to ask them, please do.
The images of the frames are also very helpful.
Rich, do you have any info on the contract for the Matchless ?
Thanks again
Keith

rampant rivet · #20 21-02-07, 18:13

No probs Keith, Rich I'm not sure about footrest lug but I think it is the clamp version, is there any significance between the types ?

RR.

Rich Payne · #21 21-02-07, 22:25

Keith, Although I have several sources for Norton info. My only gen on Matchless contracts is from Orchard & Madden. Do you have a copy ? Recently reprinted and well worth getting hold of.

They confirm that frame 20660 was built under contract C9841 commencing with 20650 which probably carried a census number of C4649425. On this basis, I would expect yours to be around C4649435. The number on your tank C5210671 appears to have been issued to a 1943/44 WM20 BSA contract.

There is a photo on the Canadian Archive of G3L C5484270 in Canadian service.

C9841 included machines with both Lucas and Miller lighting equipment. Yours seems to have been Lucas.

Engine no. 51384 was built under C12632, a contract from 11/41

RR, The type of footrest lug is dependent on frame date. Pre and early war machines had no pillion equipment and the original civilian footrest lug was used for the Field Stand. I'm still trying to ascertain precisely when the extra brazed-on lug was introduced in production.

Panniers and pillion facilities were clearly fitted to machines already in service but I have found no evidence as to how this was done. A clamp-on lug would be the easiest option but perhaps few have survived because post-war civilian users didn't need the Field Stand.

Does your frame number have the "W" prefix ?

By the way, if you'd like to see copies of the pictures I mentioned, pm me with an e-mail address and I'll be happy to send them through to you.

rampant rivet · #22 21-02-07, 23:56

Hi Rich
The rear side stand is fitted to a brazed lug and foward of that is the clamp type lug for the footrest.
My frame No. does not have the W prefix which I took for an early machine or an impressed civilian model.
It has definately been through a REME workshop as I have the plate on the inside of the tooolbox which includes its postwar no. and matching frame and engine No's.

Cheers RR.

Keith Orpin · #23 22-02-07, 10:46

Hi Rich,
Many thanks for your reply. I don't have the book you refer to (yet), but the guy I purchased her from, did have the 1st edition, which he showed me, confirming to me that the bike was definately a wartime machine. The number on the tank and the flash, was applied by the previous owner, and is obviously wrong. Thanks for giving me the probable census number, which will be applied during my tidy up of the machine. if you come agross anything else, please post it
Regards
Keith

Rich Payne · #24 22-02-07, 21:52

RR, 17154 doesn't make sense as a Norton number without the "W" as it would have been around 1926 but according to the factory records was never issued. However, there do seem to be WD frames without the "W" There was a war on after all !

Does your engine have a "W" prefix ? By the way, I'm sure Rob van den Brink would be keen to enter your details on his machine register. http://home.tiscali.nl/wd16h/

Keith, I will keep my eyes open for early G3L pictures (up to frame number 19299 were girder-forked G3s) so there can't be many older than yours. In the meantime, here is Canadian Archives PA - 206876 (wrongly captioned as a Norton on their website)

Rich

Rich Payne · #25 22-02-07, 22:11

Keith, Does yours come with the optional extra ?

Rich

servicepub (RIP) · #26 27-02-07, 23:51

Census numbers for motorcycles used by Canadians

1940 - 1942

CC74000 - 75249 (RCASC) (some of these were later converted to numbers in the CC4200153 to CC4200251 range)
CC1037601 - CC1038300 (RCASC)
CC1039802 - CC1041036

C-353030 - C359973 (not in a block)

CC4200001 - CC4202000 (blocks allocated to Canadian use)
CC4216701 - CC4217200 "
CC4217701 - CC4218700 "
CC4220001 - CC4228000 "
CC4259051 - CC4264050 "

Aug 1944 - issued to Cdn Forces (not in blocks)

C5479671 - C5482767 (Matchless)
C4102905 - C4193072 (Norton)
C4586734 - C4682463 (Norton)
C5267113 - C5267274 (Norton)

As of Oct 1942
4,267 Norton Solos and 269 Norton Combos in Canadian service.

This list is not comprehensive. It was compiled from data I obtained at National Archives while researching my Motorcycle book

rampant rivet · #27 28-02-07, 08:07

Hi Rich
Have contacted Rob with the details of m/c will await develpements. The frame No. is not stamped in the usual place on the down tube but on the cross tube under the petrol tank. I have scraped away the paint on the down tube and there is no evidence of a No. ever being stamped there, puzzling !!

RR.

rampant rivet · #28 05-03-07, 22:00

Have had reply from Rob and he confirms that my machine dates from 1940 even though the W prefix is absent.
He was also able to give some more info on its post war history its seems to have been demobbed Dec 57.
Keith have removed bags from machine with view to talking to Allied Forces soon.

RR.

Keith Orpin · #29 23-04-07, 13:30

The G3L came home a couple of weeks ago. After my initial comments on a few things requiring attention, I proceeded to remove various items to make the task easier. However, having decided that the wiring reqiures attention, and the primary chaincase leaks, and the brakes need relining (due to someone who enjoyed using a gease gun too much), I have ended up with a frame and engine !
So, the rebuild now starts,photo's to follow (still determined to have her finished for this years season)
Keith

Keith Orpin · #30 29-05-07, 17:30

As promised, here are a couple of images of the G3L, having now been rebuilt. Her first showing was this weekend at Trucks & Troops at Beaulieu. This has the makings of a good show. The only thing missing is the rear rack, but I did find another one to take dimensions off, so I'll fabricate one, as so far I have been unable to find one.
Hope you enjoy the pictures
Keith