Clarify, If You Would

[DITNER, S.M.]

Gents:


I have come across the term "Besa" a number of times in War Diaries. Though I recognize that it refers to the armament on a tank, is it the main gun, or machine guns, and what is the origin?

Thanks a bunch.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by DITNER, S.M.
I have come across the term "Besa" a number of times in War Diaries. Though I recognize that it refers to the armament on a tank, is it the main gun, or machine guns, and what is the origin?

The BESA was 'secondary armament' on a tank.

Origin:

The BESA Machine Gun was the mainstay of British Tanks 'secondary armament' for all of the Second World War. In 1937 the British army began looking for an air-cooled replacement for the Vickers machine-gun for use in infantry battalions and in tanks, and the Czech ZB vz/53 (also called the vz/37) designed by Vaclav Hoiek was chosen. The original intention was to have it redesigned to take the rimmed .303 in cartridge, but time was short and it was decided to forgo its infantry application and adopt it for tank use only in its original 7.92 mm chambering, which then required a supply of 7.92 mm ammunition. This was less of a disadvantage for tank use than it would have been had the weapon seen wider application. Arrangements were made to have the gun manufactured by the BSA Company under licence, hence the name BESA. The first production guns were issued to the army late in 1939.

The BESA was a gas-operated gun with two unusual features. Firstly, the piston left the gas cylinder on its rearward stroke, so that the gas—and the powder fouling—were exhausted to the outside, giving a high degree of reliability. Secondly, the barrel recoiled within the gun body and the gun actually fired while the barrel was still returning to its forward position. This meant that the recoil force had to stop the forward movement before it could begin to force the barrel back again, and this, in turn, reduced the recoil force on the gun mounting. The original BESA (MK 1) had two rates of fire, 450 rounds per minute or 750 rounds per minute, achieved by varying the stroke of the bolt during recoil. In subsequent marks, which were designed with a view to simplifying production, this feature was removed and the gun fired at 750 rounds per minute only. The BESA MK 1 is distinguished by the cooling fins and pierced barrel casing were removed in later marks.

As the war progressed a simplified version, the BESA MK 3, was produced, still retaining calibre of 7.92 mm, with changes to speed production and cut costs. When additional changes had been made to the MK 3 it was 20% cheaper than the original BESA MK 1 machine-gun. The original Czech gun, saw action throughout the world, and similar types of gun were mounted in the Czech tanks used by the Germans.

BESA Machine Gun, Data:

Model: - 7.92 mm Mark I -

Calibre - 7.92 mm
Weight (unloaded) - 47 lb
Length - 43.5 in
Barrel Length - 25.2 in
Belt fed - 250 round belt
Rate of Fire - 450 or 750
Muzzle Velocity - 2700 ft/s

Cheers

[Rich Payne]

As an aside, B.S.A. motorcycles are often referred to by motorcyclists as "Beezas" I'm not old enough to know whether the guns or the bikes were nicknamed first

In a similar way, A.J.S.s are generally known as "Ajays"

[DITNER, S.M.]

Mr. Tonner:

Thankyou. Prompt, and informative as always.

Interestingly, I came across the term rather frequently in 48th Highlander's regimental history, "Dileas".

I incorrectly assumed that the reference was to a main gun, and thought it might have originated in the Middle East. Ah, the folly of amateurs, what?

P.S. Was in London, at Wolseley last weekend. How sad! The whole place would fit on a postage stamp now. I half expected tumble weed to blow past. No way to treat Canada's most senior regiment......

Over/Out

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by DITNER, S.M.
Mr. Tonner:

P.S. Was in London, at Wolseley last weekend. How sad! The whole place would fit on a postage stamp now. I half expected tumble weed to blow past. No way to treat Canada's most senior regiment......

I was serving in London (RHQ The RCR) when the former 1st Battalion lines and those of Base TpT and Base CE, etc.... came down in 1995, it was indeed sad to see daily

It was even worse in 1993 when we did a recce in regards to the possible move of the LFCA 10/90 Battalion (3 RCR) into the former 1st Battalion lines in Wolseley Barracks, at that time there was tumble weeds blowing across the square!!!!! ..... and 'ghosts' and a lot of good memories ...... nothing left to show my grand-children now.....

Pro Patria

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi

I'll join in as a) I'm a "Tanky" (BESA connection) and b) was posted to the 1st Hussars as RSS for 4yrs (Woseley Bks connection) 1997-2001.

"...No way to treat Canada's most senior regiment......"

What? The 8th Canadian Hussars (Canada's oldest continually serving Regiment) are in Woseley now??
Or perhaps you mean the Royal Canadian Dragoons??

Relax, I'm merely highlighting the usual lack of knowledge displayed by Royals with regard to us (RCD) and you sharing a Birthdate. It's well- known that our order to stand up was signed first that 21st day in December 1883 so we (the RCD) are even senior to the RCR by a matter of minutes. Whereas the 8CH have about 130 years on us both!!

Besides there are no RCR Bns in London anymore so Home Station should just move to Pet or G'town!!

All in good fun, eh, Royals!!??

regards
Darrell

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Darrell Zinck
All in good fun, eh, Royals!!??

regards
Darrell

... see what happens when you give a zipperhead a computer and free time .......

...... if your that bored Darrell, go take a LAV for a spin around the airfield or something......

Stay safe out there!

[DITNER, S.M.]

Keep your hair on, there tiger....


I refuse to count perfectly able men unwilling, or unable to march into battle.

And don't believe the part in Terry Copp's "Battle Exhaustion" where it says that men who scored high on their intelligence tests were channeled into the armoured.

It has been my experience (completely peacetime, without any real threat of injury or death) that the simpler the squaddie, the braver he was.

Ha!

[Darrell Zinck]

Originally posted by DITNER, S.M.
....I refuse to count perfectly able men unwilling, or unable to march into battle.

And don't believe the part in Terry Copp's "Battle Exhaustion" where it says that men who scored high on their intelligence tests were channeled into the armoured.

It has been my experience (completely peacetime, without any real threat of injury or death) that the simpler the squaddie, the braver he was.

Ha!

Well, you can carry your kit or your kit can carry you!!

Intelligent or not?? :idea:

Besides, 011 come before 031.

Nawww, I like Infantry types but wouldn't want their job for all the tea in China. I were one once upon a time, long long ago in the Reserve (WNSR) and it just made the choice to be a Zip all the more easy. FN, Y-strap webbing, grenade launcher and steel pot on my head? Pass!!

Anywho.............I found a pic or two:




http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.pat...rmourtanks.htm

regards
Darrell

[DITNER, S.M.]

Thanks for the pics. You are a good sort, considering my slanderous comments.

On a more serious note - my respect for your service in Afghanistan.

I work at Mountain Equipment Co-Op, in Toronto. We have donated a bit of swag to you fellas in Kandahar now and again, at my insistence. I have made all the tree-huggers there well aware of the hardships faced by our troops (and they call me rude names for it).

Salute.

Over.

[sapper740]

Originally posted by Darrell Zinck




What? The 8th Canadian Hussars (Canada's oldest continually serving Regiment) are in Woseley now??
Or perhaps you mean the Royal Canadian Dragoons??

Relax, I'm merely highlighting the usual lack of knowledge displayed by Royals with regard to us (RCD) and you sharing a Birthdate. It's well- known that our order to stand up was signed first that 21st day in December 1883 so we (the RCD) are even senior to the RCR by a matter of minutes. Whereas the 8CH have about 130 years on us both!!

Sorry to interrupt all this back-slapping by you regimental types but as a Corps we Engineers have it all over all y'all. Officially, the Corps of Royal Canadian Engineers was raised in 1861, although, of course contributions to the building of Canada by military Engineers precedes that date by many years. In the ORDER OF PRECEDENCE, Engineers are only preceded by the Navy and the Artillery, which is surprising as the RCA was raised a full ten years after the Corps of R.C.E. (I'm sure this fact provides Gunner with no end of satisfaction! ) so this coming Canada Day (July 1st is the semi-official birthday of the Engineers) you might want to reflect and give thanks to those who:

.....look like tramps but they build your camps and sometimes lead the advance.
And they sweat red blood to bridge the flood, to give you a fighting chance.
But who stays behind when it gets too hot, to blow up the roads in the rear?
Just tell your wife that you owe your life to the muddy old Engineers!

(excerpt from the SALUTE TO THE ENGINEERS.)

The Texas Thread Jacker strikes again!

[Darrell Zinck]

Ahhh yes, the Engineers. Good fellas them. Another job I have the utmost respect for and would never do!! I've worked with many Sappers over the years and know for a fact what a difficult trade it is. Somewhat thankless too.

As for their so called seniority...........well that's debatable isn't it. Corps size and trying to use a British connection isn't exactly pukka. I'll give you the "everywhere" but isn't "Regimental" pride so much better?

That thing about the Navy being the Senior Service in Canada is iffy to me as well. The RCN didn't exist until something like 1923 and merely adopted the customs and traditions of the RN (including the "senior" title). Army is, without a doubt, the senior Service in Canada. I'm fine with the Arty boys being senior within our Army too. You or them, no matter. I know it's not us but hey "If you ain't Cav, ya just ain't."

Also without a doubt is the 8th Hussars service. Officially their date is 1848. Really 1775 but still earlier than the GGHG's who insist on following the (as yet un-corrected) pre-1980 list of seniority.

Mr Ditner

I'd like to say that MEC has been very good to our troops in that there are discounts and free shipping available to any and all who order from them from here. Nice stuff too. My thanks for your kind support.

regards to all
Darrell

[Gunner]

The militia act of September, 1855 created Canada's first units two of which still serve today. Prior to that time the home grown units were of various colonies not the United Canadas. Point for my favourite Texan Sapper- six years before we felt a need to sap things!

There are many and varied claims to fame and antiquity... the first artillery was formally formed in Quebec in 1750. The Loyal Company (3 RCA) have served in an unbroken line to 1793. The first REGULAR (as we define the term today) units formed in the Canadian militia were A & B Batteries, now of 1 RCHA, in October 1871.

While making for great mess debates perhaps the important point here is that once proud Wolseley Barracks is a sad example of how the "pool everything in one place" super-base wallahs have forgotten that a 'footprint' across the whole land is an important part of what the army is all about!

Mike

[DITNER, S.M.]

Mr. Zinck:



If I can do anything for you, or your squaddies, please let me know.

Despite its peacenik background Mountain Communist, as I like to call it, has a number of ex-military types although I generally tear up resumes belonging to former armour, artillery, and particularly engineering types.I like the infantry ones because they are generally done in crayon and contain outrageous lies about time in special ops. etc.

My email at work is sditner@mec.ca. If old "Mortician" Harper can't issue it to you, maybe I can help. Don't hesitate.

Watch your six out there, and bring me an ear or two. Oops, naughty reference.

Out.