Morris-Commercial C8 Gun Tractor body id please?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Can anyone identify the style of body on this Morris-Commercial FAT please? Census number H5847572 to Contract S.5728 as "Gun Tractor FAT". IT'S NOT A REBUILD OF THE C.8/MG ANTI-TANK PORTEE BECAUSE THAT HAD THREE-PIECE FLAT MUDGUARDS INSTEAD OF ROUND ONES, I.E. TO "C/8/AT MARK 111 AIRPORTABLE" WHICH LACKED THE BODY STRUCTURE OF THE NON-AIRPORTABLE VERSION. However the series show the body being dismantled and then the end result is an Airportable truck without rear frame, doors, canvas and with fly screesn for the driver and passenger. Now, given that this is a rebuild on a Gun Tractor, is it a conversion shown in pix or a rebuild that could be stripped down to insert in a plane/glider and the actual stripdown is being demonstrated?

I SUGGEST NOW THAT IT'S A REBUILD OR VERSION OF THE M-C C.8/FAT Mk 111 Number 5 body, without side doors and side and rear panels. Comparing the bodies this seems to be correct, but was it a rebuild or a version of the No. 5 body?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Comparing the bodies this seems to be correct, but was it a rebuild or a version of the No. 5 body?

David,

I love those riddles you let loose on us every now and then

It is not a "version" of the C8/FAT Mk III with Number 5 body, in the sense that it was produced in any numbers. The No.5 body was open-topped with fixed sides and proper doors (much like the CMP FAT-6 pictured here which was patterned on the M-C FAT with No.5 body). But this wood-'n-canvas body was clearly patterned on it.

No doubt it is experimental, and therefore likely to be based on an existing FAT so it can be classified as a "rebuild" if you like. If your pictures are all of the same tractor H5847572, they must show a tractor in different prototyping stages. Note that in the top photographs the tractor has a fixed windscreen surround, making it too high to fit into a glider. The lower one has no windscreen but small aero screens, looking much more like a FAT that would fit in a glider.

I'll notify Richard Notton so he can ask his neighbour and Morris-Commercial connoisseur Rory Ballard. And our resident forum member Mike Kelly can probably add some constructive comments, if not the definitive answer.

- Hanno

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Hanno, this is an original shot of Number H 49022265 which was apparently used in some way, by implication, with the Airborne units. This is to Contract V.4999. However the other trucks i.e. the Airportable version for the Airportable 17-pounder were to Contract S.5728 in the range H 5847350 to 5847849. I wonder if that batch was adaptation to the Airportable role, and all of them were used as such or just some? The basics seem the same but of course the No. 5 has doors and side panels. The quesry is whether this was an adaptation of the No. 5 body or a rebuild on one? We know that predictors and the A/tank Portees were rebuilt into the A/T 17-pounder role, with rebuilds by Morris-Commercial themselves. There was either then a further rebuild or a seperate contract for Airportable versions without the rear body and again no front screen or aeroscreens even, as per the full size rebuilds as it were.

[Mark W. Tonner]

David;

Does this help at all, the AoS is 4?, 6th AB Div prior to 6 June 1944 - it look like a Morris-Commercial C8 Gun Tractor? loaded on a Hamilcar glider.

Cheers

[Richard Farrant]

Mark,
The number on the AoS marking could be either, 40 which was HQ Royal Artillery, Airborne Div., or 46, Air Landing Light Regt, RA, or 47, Airlanding Anti Tank Regt. RA.

Richard

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Richard;

I was thinking '47' - Airlanding A/Tk Regt, RA. - towing veh for 17pdr - maybe?

Didn't the Airlanding Light Regt use 5cwt to tow their Guns?

Cheers

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
No doubt it is experimental, and therefore likely to be based on an existing FAT so it can be classified as a "rebuild" if you like. If your pictures are all of the same tractor H5847572, they must show a tractor in different prototyping stages. Note that in the top photographs the tractor has a fixed windscreen surround, making it too high to fit into a glider. The lower one has no windscreen but small aero screens, looking much more like a FAT that would fit in a glider.

I'll notify Richard Notton so he can ask his neighbour and Morris-Commercial connoisseur Rory Ballard. And our resident forum member Mike Kelly can probably add some constructive comments, if not the definitive answer.

Richard showed this page to Rory, and he "agrees with the last paragraph, Guy Pelham at the Airborne Museum has all the originals".

Originally posted by David_Hayward
However the other trucks i.e. the Airportable version for the Airportable 17-pounder were to Contract S.5728 in the range H 5847350 to 5847849. I wonder if that batch was adaptation to the Airportable role, and all of them were used as such or just some? The basics seem the same but of course the No. 5 has doors and side panels. The quesry is whether this was an adaptation of the No. 5 body or a rebuild on one? We know that predictors and the A/tank Portees were rebuilt into the A/T 17-pounder role, with rebuilds by Morris-Commercial themselves. There was either then a further rebuild or a seperate contract for Airportable versions without the rear body and again no front screen or aeroscreens even, as per the full size rebuilds as it were.

David, here's what could have happened: to fulfill the need for more Airportable 17-pounder tractors, M-C stripped a FAT with No.5 body down as much as possible to save weight. Since the body was of wooden frame/steel panelling construction, the steel panelling was stripped off and replaced by canvas. Doors and some hatches are not really needed so could be left off to save more weight (top picture). But then M-C found it was still too large and heavy to fit in a glider, so the tractor is even further modified (bottom picture). This reasoning would mean only one of the FATs in the top picture was built, which is endorsed by the fact that the same FAT was further modified as per the bottom picture. I have no idea if 500 of these Airportable FATs were actually finished under Contract S.5728, could it be the Contract was cancelled at the end of the war? I think this variant was not very numerous as I have never seen pictures or read about it. But no doubt Mr Pelham at the Airborne Museum can tell you more.

Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
...it look like a Morris-Commercial C8 Gun Tractor?

Mark,

This is a Morris-Commercial C8/AT Mk III, or "Tractor 4x4 Anti-Tank 17-pdr". I know these were used during Operation Market-Garden in September 1944, but can't tell for sure if 17-pdr tractors were used for the D-Day landings and Rhine crossings.

Hanno

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
... but can't tell for sure if 17-pdr tractors were used for the D-Day landings and Rhine crossings.

Hanno;

Just a note, the 'Tractor' in the Hamilcar is from the 6th Airborne Division, that's the G.O.C. of the Division in the lower right-hand corner of the picture, Richard Gale.

I'll see what I can dig up on their use regarding D-Day and the Rhine crossing.

Cheers

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Yes, that's a rebuild of the C.8/MG 2-pounder Portee, that was of course very similar in body design to the Chevrolet version. However whereas Chevs were converted to G/S Trucks or 6-pounder/17-pounder Tractors, the M-C versions seems to have been converted, along with some/all C.8/P Predictors to the Tractor role in late 1943 by Morris Commercial Cars Limited in Birmingham. Rob and Monica of Groucho Publishing in Tilburg own a genuine Airportable version. There is of course at least one full size rebuikd on Portee in the UK as well. There are however detailed differences between the rebuilds on the Portees and the [using that word liberally] FAT Mk 111 No. 5, but it remains an enigma as to how many trucks based on the No. 5 were actually built!

Thanks guys for getting to the truth. Now I just wish that I could find some shots of the REAR of the /AT rebuilds...however we do, thanks to Rob&Monica, have copies of the blueprint drawings showing the conversion to the full size /AT Mk 111, and then it is clear how the rear body was removed. The seats for the crew were placed on either side of the truck behind driver/passenger. Phew, this has been a hard nut to crack.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
There are however detailed differences between the rebuilds on the Portees and the [using that word liberally] FAT Mk 111 No. 5, but it remains an enigma as to how many trucks based on the No. 5 were actually built!

I'd say there are more than "detailed differences" between the C8/AT Mk III and the Contract S.5728 "Gun Tractor FAT". I seriously doubt many of the latter were built, as the need for Airportable 17-pdr 4x4 Anti-Tank Tractors must have been limited. Anyone with a good insight in the organisation of the Airborne Divisions should be able to give an estimate of the numbers used/needed.
David, do you know how many C8/MG Portees and C8/P Predictors were converted into C8/AT's?

Also, the Airportable C8/AT Mk III was not liked very well. Possibly the Contract S.5728 "Gun Tractor FAT" was built to overcome the weak points of the C8/AT Mk III?

There are various C8/AT Mk III's surviving in the UK:
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/lsm/dhmg/belt00-2.html
http://www.military39-45.freeuk.com/Update08/pic008.htm

Below is another picture of the Airportable C8/AT owned by Rob van Meel and Monica Baan. They use it each year for the Market-Garden commemorations.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Hanno, thanks for the photo of Rob and Monica's truck...I am still waiting for some shots of the back of their truck as they only sent me shots of the side and the one I posted. Lovely couple. Thanks, I have seen the shots of the non-AP version before, BUT HAD LOST THEIR IMAGES WHEN MY PC CRASHED SO THANKS ONCE MORE.

I am trying to remember if Bart noted how many C.8/P trucks were converted....did he mention in W & T on the M-C Quads? That said would all have been converted in which case I have their census numbers and can establish what the maximum was in any event.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Thanks, I have seen the shots of the non-AP version before,...

David, click here to see another preserved C8/AT Mk III (source), this one is owned by the Cobbaton Combat Collection.

I am trying to remember if Bart noted how many C.8/P trucks were converted....did he mention in W & T on the M-C Quads? That said would all have been converted in which case I have their census numbers and can establish what the maximum was in any event.

No, Bart did not mention the numbers converted. Anything you can add to this subject is welcome!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

This appears to be, from the photo description, a C.8/P Predictor rebuild to the A/T Mk 111. What's the M-C truck behind with no screen?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
This appears to be, from the photo description, a C.8/P Predictor rebuild to the A/T Mk 111.

How would one be able to establish that a C8/AT was modified from a C8/P? Would the original data plate be retained?

What's the M-C truck behind with no screen?

That's a Morris-Commercial C9/B "Carrier, SP, 4x4, 40-mm AA (Bofors)" on the same site and from the same stable.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I would have thought that the original data plate and a rebuild plate would have been extant to identify for parts, maintenance, etc. I would have also thought that the Contract number would have been quoted. The blueprints of the rebuild from the /MG Portee to the /AT clearly show that it was rebuilt from... to...I am no expert as you know but surely the rear chassis/bodies would have differed between the Predictor variants and the Mobile Gun platform?

IN FACT IN COMPARING THERE ARE SUBSTANTIAL DIFFERENCES IN THE BASIC TRUCKS, I.E. THE C8/P AND THE C.8/MG, AND THEN AGAIN FROM THE C8/FAT.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Also, the Airportable C8/AT Mk III was not liked very well. Possibly the Contract S.5728 "Gun Tractor FAT" was built to overcome the weak points of the C8/AT Mk III?

Here is a quote from Annex 'R' of the After Action Report by Commander Royal Artillery Lt.-Col. R.G. Loder-Symonds, DSO:

"The Morris 30 CWT is an unreliable and unsatisfactory tower. At present no substitute has been found which will fit in the Hamilcar. This is a most urgent requirement as continual breakdowns are experienced with these vehicles by all concerned."

Possibly this was the reason M-C was prototyping a new Airportable FAT?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The question now is whether the adaptation of the Mk111 No. 5 was a one-off or one of a number? Thanks Hanno for that information.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

From an anonymous book it seems that the truck H 5847572 had the sheet metal sides, doors tailboard and toolboxes removed. The tractor was then loaded with boxes of 17-pounder Armour Piercing ammo, with boxes containing two rounds each. During Operation MARKET fifteen boxes were carried per tractor. However the photo published of the rear view shows no room for the crew! As I said this was a rebuild or batch of M-C C.8/AT Mk 111 No. 5 bodies with demountable rear bodies. Could there have been a specific batch of Airportable versions failing the rebuilds on the C./8MG and C.8/P trucks which were old hat by then?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The book was of course TUGS AND GLIDERS INTO ARNHEM by Arie-jan van Hees. I have emailed him to ask if he can help.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

It's that time! That is it's time to start modelling trucks at last, and apart from A/P guns, we have to consider what else to feature to tow them. Would the Morris Commercial CS8 Airportable have fitted in a Horsa? I assume not...had to be Hamilcar. Also, towed 6-pdr or just 17-pdr with Jeep towing 6-pdr?

I know we can go for CMPs now, and the question is to which gets tackled first. I therefore have to ask if 1/32nd scale plans are available for models of CMPs please?

[Mike Kelly]

I would like to comment :

There are around six Morris C8 A/T portees in Australia I know of . All are in a rather sad state and missing the rear portee body . But , interestingly they are original and are unconverted to the 17 pndr specs .

This may be because they were refugee cargo intended for Malaya or ex Middle East cargo ?

I include a pic of one in NSW . Another one has just been sold here , unrestored without portee body . It takes a game person to restore a vehicle like this on this side of the world , without access to archives or help .

Mike

[Mike Kelly]

Yes , I mean pottee cos thats about all this wrreck is good for .

Mike

[Mike Kelly]

Two more Pottees in Australia . Would any of you guys take on these beauties !

Mike

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Morris-Commercial C8/AT Mk III Airportable in Polish service, towing a US-built 75-mm Pack howitzer:


Source: http://arnhem1944.civ.pl/archiwalia.htm

Notice the rear body seems much less substantial than on the ones shown earlier in this thread.

H.

[alleramilitaria]

might want to check something out
the morris 15CWT C8 was produced for only afew months in 1944.
one batch had a standard wood GS body
mine has a steel body (later production)
then there was a airborne version (cross between a FAT and C8) that was used by the RA troops at arnherm. this version was converted by the army just for the 17lb gun. you can see a good photo of one in action if you can get your hands a copy of the short film shot by the dentest in oostebek durring the first day of the battle. the truck was a NEWER truck not a converted older putie

this truck was not ready for opperations durring D-Day and due to its problems was replaced by dodge trucks in the 6th abn div for the rhine crossing.

[Attilio]

There is any data about the employment of the Morris C8 AT 2 pounder portee in North Africa?

Thanks
Attilio

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Attilio
There is any data about the employment of the Morris C8 AT 2 pounder portee in North Africa?

No data, but here's a picture captioned "A DESERT TRACK" showing a Morris-Commercial C8/MG (or "Truck, 4x4, AT Portee (2-pdr)") in use with The Fifth Indian Division.

HTH,
Hanno


Source: http://www.ku.edu/carrie/specoll/AFS...l/firepix.html (link also posted in the thread Indian Army vehicles)

[Hendrik van Oorspronk]

Hello, had a look at the pictures, i don't think the wide one will fit into the Hamilcar, as you look a the yellow ones, the first one is also a narrow one.

Hendrik van Oorspronk

[Rob van Meel]

At long last, as I recently got the Morris-Commercial back after a long absence: photographs of the rear end