1940 location recognised?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Does anyone recognise this location for the flying FAT? This photo arrived today from the Canadian National Archives and is one reference number out from one of C30S trucks being assembled in Southampton. These were both taken from movies by the Film Unit of the time, and there are others I have found and ordered. I wish I knew what happened to the movie! The Southampton one was taken in October 1940, and I suspect that this one dates from the same time [October 13 I think]. I have blown up the portion in the left corner as there is a F60H shown...which camo pattern is that please? Overseas or Canadian domestic?

http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/...lk/1940FAT.gif

http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/chevytalk/query.gif

I would have imagined that if this was a UK scene from October 1940 then it was near Dagenham IF the Wagons are 91A or E91A models as assembled at Dagengham. If they are C11AD or C11AS Wagons and 1941 Models then they were assembled in the new CMD in Slough, and this photo dates from December 1940 onwards. The location would then be either the Candian compound adjacent to the Slough Trading Estate or perhaps at Bordon...

However a re-think has prompted me to notice that the FAT has louvred air intakes on the cab, which means it was not a very early production model. It must be therefore post-August 1940 production and thus a 1941 Model albeit with # 11 Cab. Are those Wagons 1941 Models? Others may have keener eyes for the radiator grilles than I have.

[Pete Ashby]

David

The F60H in the background is showing the three colour disruptive scheme. I have no record of trucks coming to the UK in this format. There are however pictures of a number of trucks in Canada (all Fords) painted in this way. See Blue Print for Victory Gregg pages 78 at the Canadian National Exhibition in Toronto summer 1940 and page 69 factory photo of a standard 15A of mid 1940. Back on the old forum there was a thread about three colour camouflage schemes. Hanno may know where to find it?

This system of factory painting did not last long. I suspect that CKD shipping and the loss of sub assemblies made matching the paint patterns almost impossible. The three colour schemes was superseded by factory applied G3 for northern Europe which was over painted after assembly with a dark green and then before Christmas 1940 with Knobles Tarmac green (almost black) both types applied by hand in a broad disruptive pattern.

The FAT looks to be mid range 11 cab at a guess around September to December 1940

Pete

[Keith Webb]

This is indeed a famous CMP shot and has been widely published.
As for the film, I don't know anything about the original BUT I'm prepared to film a re-enactment if anyone's game

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Keith Webb
As for the film, I don't know anything about the original BUT I'm prepared to film a re-enactment if anyone's game :D

Keith,
Maybe Aaron would like to re-enact the picture with his Blitz, he has tried to swim it on several occasions, so why not have a go at flying it??

Richard

[Pete Ashby]

Keith

Anyone who re-enacts this would definitely end up as a case of shaken not stirred. That would be one big bang on landing.

I'v'e often thought the same about the similar photo of the 15A that's airborne as well

Pete

[Don Dingwall]

What then were the three colours Pete mentions?

Love to know.
Don

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
Keith,
Maybe Aaron would like to re-enact the picture with his Blitz, he has tried to swim it on several occasions, so why not have a go at flying it??

Richard

I'm sure Aaron would be in it but he'll need to build a cab 12 FAT.
To make it more interesting I think we should build a jump at least 6 feet high, too.

Seriously, I know the weak spots in the front suspension and think it is possible the front spring hangers might have been a bit overstressed.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Pete Ashby
Anyone who re-enacts this would definitely end up as a case of shaken not stirred. That would be one big bang on landing.

Hehehehe.... definitiely a case for a well-padded arse!

Keith, you'd have to talk up a good story to get anyone with a restored FAT to do this, fat arse or no!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Pete Ashby
Back on the old forum there was a thread about three colour camouflage schemes. Hanno may know where to find it?

See my web page on paint schemes for CMP trucks and follow the link to the various forum threads, mailing list messages and web pages. As far as I can tell this scheme was some sort of fancy factory-applied one - at least I have not found a reference to it W.D. camouflage schemes.

[Steve Guthrie]

Hi there

Those Ford station wagons look like 1940 models. Notice the sharp edge to the roof/side panel joint.

Re: the colours.
Pete Andrews posted a letter to the old MLU D-Group he discovered in the public records office about Canadian MV Colours:

"Light stone agreed as the colour pattern for MT vehicles for the Middle East.

Camouflage Designs - IMT (SK) 1263 (Sheets 1-6), Ministry of Supply Specification MC 205J, Tint Plates, Khaki Green No.3, Control Shades 219 & 235."

This was sent from Dep.Nat. Def.,Ottawa to Can.Mil.HQ

"Paint Spec. CS/1289 Grey dark, CS/1276 Light green No.5 special, CS/1275 Light Indian red special, CS/1274 Dark Tarmac No.4 special, CS/1273 Light Sand special, CS/1272 Middle Stone special, CS/1193 Light Stone, CS/955 Ammonium Nitrate."

So I suppose the three-colour scheme on that F60H could be a combo of a couple of these.

You're right about the camo patterns. They were originally applied at the factory. To quote the Record of Design book:

"At one stage the British Ministry of Supply requested that all vehicles going to the Middle East be camouflaged. However, it proved impractical to carry this out in production as proper camouflaging required a continuitiy of design and a variation from vehicle to vehicle to prevent a ?stereotyped? appearance. It was impossible for the manufacturer to produce a continuity of design in production where, in many instances, the chassis and cabs were not matched untill arrival at destination. Specification O.A.84, and certain camouflage patterns as referred to thereon, were developed before the decision to delete camouflage was made".

My 2 cents

Steve

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Keith Webb
I'm sure Aaron would be in it but he'll need to build a cab 12 FAT.
To make it more interesting I think we should build a jump at least 6 feet high, too.
overstressed.

I will do it but not in my blitz i think that will be a bit hard on it. But if someone wants to build me a cab 12 FAT and put some good seat belts i might give it a go..

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I am beginning to think that this must have been a domestic shot, and possibly the famous coal pile at the Windsor plant on the Detroit River. I just cannot see it as being a British shot...note that if it was in Britain then the F-GT would have had a "CMD 12345" serial number on the side from assembly line but before the WD CH1234567 number would have been applied.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward


I would have imagined that if this was a UK scene from October 1940 then it was near Dagenham IF the Wagons are 91A or E91A models as assembled at Dagengham. If they are C11AD or C11AS Wagons and 1941 Models then they were assembled in the new CMD in Slough, and this photo dates from December 1940 onwards. The location would then be either the Candian compound adjacent to the Slough Trading Estate or perhaps at Bordon...
*snip*
Are those Wagons 1941 Models? Others may have keener eyes for the radiator grilles than I have.

David, it's difficult to see, but checking against the illustrations on the Ford Flathead Model Identification Chart, I'd say these are 1940 (or 1939) model year front ends.
Also compare with the picture of the 1940 Ford 79A Standard Station Wagon shown below (courtesy of Jon Carr Farrelly). This is one of a number of Wagons acquired for "domestic use". (As far as I can tell these were civilian Wagons with left-hand drive, the only thing military about them was the camouflage scheme.) This endorses your assumption that the FAT must have been flying around domestic grounds.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I believe that these were the DND orders placed in August 1940 for Personnel Carriers for domestic use, in advance of C8/F8 trucks being allocated for the purpose. The DND had had a series of Ford Wagons since at least 1935 by the way.

"On 6 January 1941, the Standing Committee on Canadian Transport Vehicles agreed on the concept of a Heavy Utility vehicle based on the 8-cwt. chassis, but this time a 4 x 4 chassis, to replace passenger car and station wagon staff cars, as well as the original Ford and Chevrolet 4 x 2 F.8 and C.8 Personnel vehicles. The Army Engineering Design Branch and General Motors of Canada designed the proposed vehicles".