Canadian Cold War re-enactment information

[Stuart Fedak]

Text removed as information is no longer current

[chris vickery]

Stuart
I am sure ou know that the Iltis was really only around almost when the Cold War was finished, aka 1990 and the fall of the Berlin Wall.
So technically the Iltis did see some service during the dying days between 1984-90 while the conflict in Bosnia was in the early 90's.
What are you looking for information on, kit? Uniform etc?

[Ed Storey]

Stuart:

Cold War Kit is too broad a term. The Cold War lasted for 50 years and saw a clothing evolution from WWII Battle Dress to OG107 Combats. What you are looking for is 1980s combats and field equipment. There is no book on this topic although John Cameron's on-line MP Museum has a lot of information that you can draw upon. Perhaps you might be better off getting a maniquin and dressing it in the clothing and equipement of the era and standing it beside your Iltis rather then attempting to play the part as a re-enactor.

ED

http://mpmuseum.org/

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak

Chris,

Yes, the Iltis came into service during 1984, 1985 and 1986. By the end of 1986, the entire Iltis fleet was in Canadian service.
Cheers!
Stuart

I thought the M151A2 was still in service into 1987 in the Tow missile role with the Cdn airborne, waiting for an Iltis platform. Did there end up being an Iltis Tow launcher?

Re the best before date of the Iltis, I was in Cypress in 89, and the Iltis was pulled from service then and replaced with the Pajero. It was already passing it's best before date, or so the LCMMs thought.

[rob love]

So looking at that, I would say the Iltis were not fully implemented until 1988. The Iltis you show the history for appears to have sat in a supply depot until it went to a work center for conversion. It was then issued for the first time to the Airborne in May of 88.

I take it this means the M151A2 remained in that role until about that date as well. I recall the parts still being actively in the supply system around 88.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak

It seems to me I have seen a small CF issue handbook that showed most of the 80s combats. If anyone has a spare copy, I would appreciate picking one up.....
Stuart

Are you talking about the little handbook for the new webbing? I have a copy of that kicking around downstairs somewhere, but have never seen one covering the combat clothing. Seems like everything you needed to know was on the label inside the uniform.

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak

Also, most, if not all the uniforms and other kit used in Bosnia was typical Canadian Cold War issue.

Cheers!
Stuart

Actually, this isn't entirely accurate Stuart.

In the tail end of the "Cold War" circa 1990 was 82 Pattern Webbing, Steel Pot Helmets, Four Seasons Jackets, and if you were a Reservist likely still carried an FN Rifle.

By the time we rolled into Bosnia, we had Kevlar Helmets, Tactical Vests (albeit terrible ones), Goretex Boots, Goretex Jackets, and carried C7A1s.

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by rob love

So looking at that, I would say the Iltis were not fully implemented until 1988. The Iltis you show the history for appears to have sat in a supply depot until it went to a work center for conversion. It was then issued for the first time to the Airborne in May of 88.

I take it this means the M151A2 remained in that role until about that date as well. I recall the parts still being actively in the supply system around 88.

Hopefully Steve Hawken chimes in. His 151 was a Missile Launcher Carrier, and IIRC was still in the system until 1990.

EDIT, I don't have it handy but I actually found the publication that showed how to prep the TOW M151A2 for parachute operations which features none other than Steve Hawken's M151A2. It was dated for the early 90s as well. As a side note, most of us dream of finding an in service pic of our rigs and here Hawken gets a whole publication showcasing his.... some guy's luck eh.

[Harry Moon]

There was a small Cold War event this past weekend at Fort Rodd Hill in Victoria BC. Hosted by the Victoria Esquimalt Military Re-enactors Association. I'll look for pics.

[Perry Kitson]

Scott,
You mentioned the FN rifle, as a reservist I know we used it up to 1987, and we still had 2, 3.5" rocket launchers in our weapons lock up until 1979.

Perry

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by Perry Kitson

Scott,
You mentioned the FN rifle, as a reservist I know we used it up to 1987, and we still had 2, 3.5" rocket launchers in our weapons lock up until 1979.

Perry

In my neck of the woods, the switch was happening 1989ish. I was in BC mind you, so they may have implemented the new small arms from east to west. 3.5" Rocket... Now thats Old School

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak

I was searching on the web and came across a few sources for the 82 Pattern webbing kit, which would be of interest to those interested in Cold War re-enactment.

Ref : http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/...rn_webbing.pdf

I am still looking for a hard copy of the original users manual that was in a handbook format.

I came across the following web page that has all sorts of training manuals from the Canadian Cold War period.

Ref. : http://www.operationeastwind.com/wik...cific_Training


The following web page has some details on various kit, such as clothing...

Ref : http://www.operationeastwind.com/wiki/Main_Page

Scroll down to the Canadian kit.....

Ref : http://www.operationeastwind.com/wiki/Canadian_Forces

Another link. Ref: http://mpmuseum.org/securequip2.html

Of course, this is just for re-enactors, and may not really apply to what actually happened in-the-day, but it seems a good starting point.

Your thoughts?

Cheers!

Stuart

One of the founders of this group also posts on one of the M151 specific forums I belong to. I gave a rather long dissertation over there regarding their Canadian "kit list".

Short answer, and i'm sure Ed Story could probably expand even better, the one thing these guys have completely correct is that they are at least not wearing CADPAT. Beyond that, there are many holes.

The Cold War completed its final thaw in 1991. In 1991, we did not have Gortex Jackets (1995) or Elcan Scopes on the C7 (late 1992). This was in the Regular Army. Reservists, which is what they portray, didn't get these items at the Unit level until much later.

The jist of what I got was essentially that some items were chosen based on comfort (Gortex) and availability (airsoft M16A2 vs FN). Frankly, if you're carrying the wrong rifle, and wearing the wrong jacket, there is little else to redeem it in my eyes. Most of the time i'm really not into this stuff, but in this case they sort of branded themselves as providing the period correct experience, and if you've never lived dismounted in a four seasons jacket in the early spring or late fall rains, your missing out on the "experience"

[rob love]

I went to 3 RCR in the spring of 1987, and they did not bother to issue me a FN rifle, as the C7 rifles were en route at that point and showed up within the first few weeks that I was there. As the new guy to the section, I got boned with having to take the 3 day conversion course......the remainder of maintenance platoon merely got the 20 minute briefing from the weapons tech sgt.

3 RCR were the first in Canada to get them after CFE got theirs. The reason for this was that 3RCR were heading back to Germany in their regular rotation with 2VP the next summer, so they had to train with the new rifle. My recollection was that I received a brand new rifle with a 1986 date prefix.

I was a little surprised to visit my old militia unit in 1990 to find they were still waiting to change over, but as others have mentioned, the reserves get their equipment after the regular forces requirements have been satisfied.

[Ed Storey]

As one who on more than one occasion has lurked and pounced, I can certainly profess to my unfavourable view of re-enacting. From my observations, re-enacting seems to attract a demographic who generally do not reflect the era being portrayed and use the excuse that fun and finances over-rides research and presentation - usually all in the name of honouring the Veteran. I fully understand that even 20 years ago that WWII uniform/equipment information was not that easy to find although this is not the case these days as there is a lot of reliable internet and print sources that an enthusiast can access.

I had a look at the Operation Eastwind website and I must admit that I was impressed at the amount of work that had gone into the site. As with any work of this type, there are always errors and omissions and I always wonder where their information has been drawn from. I was pleased to see in the images that I looked at that this group has not fallen into the trap of representing an Airborne or Highland unit which seems to be the norm for most re-enacting groups. I agree with Scott's comment 'if you've never lived dismounted in a four seasons jacket in the early spring or late fall rains, your missing out on the "experience"'.

That being said, most National and Regimental Museums don't seem to understand the nuances of uniforms, insignia and equipment either, so the perpetuation of errors and misconceptions is not confined to just the re-enactment community. Museum sponsored re-enactment units also suffer from the same errors so there is lots of work that can be done to improve presentations.

Obviously it is easy for me to sit here and preach 'from on high'. From my selfish perspective I could latch myself onto the re-enacting community and mentor from now until the end of my days; but that means I am the one researching, paying for the parking, making the photocopies, doing the scanning, buying the books, reviewing imagery and analyzing the data - all for free. I certainly do not mind helping, but from my opinion the re-enacting community (other than the faces) has not changed and it still presents itself to the public in the same fashion that they did back in the 1970s - all fun and very little substance.

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak

Scott,
Would you be willing to expand/modify their list to correct the inaccurate information? I guess it is one thing to criticize what others have done, and it is another thing to use your own expertise, knowledge and experience to create a better version of a Cold War re-enactor kit list.

<Truncated>

Cheers!

Stuart

As I mentioned elsewhere on here, i'm not into the "dress up" aspects of the hobby. Like Ed, I am also fairly militant about being period correct and accurate. I went to some fairly great lengths to ensure my M151A2 was dead on to the point of fly shit in pepper in some cases like comms eqpt, paint and markings. That said, I generally don't expect the same level of intensity from others, but if someone advertises themselves as being correct, then I may chime in if there are inconsistencies.

The only reason I even bothered to respond to the Eastwind guys post was because they branded themselves as being the "real McCoy" re-enactors and then posted a few photos of the not period correct items I mentioned above. I couldn't help it... One of my weaknesses I guess When I saw your link I actually debated even putting my original response post up for fear of the rabbit hole.

Truth is Stuart, I barely have enough time to use my expertise for my own endeavours these days. So to answer your question: The coats and weapons are wrong as mentioned by myself and others. Full stop. I did read through their list back when I originally responded, but I don't recall all the other minor things. Like I said before, if you have the coats and rifles wrong, it doesn't really matter to me whats in your rucksack.

[maple_leaf_eh]

I looked at each Canadian tab on the list Operation East Wind site. The biggest complaint I have is their tolerance of Clothe The Soldier and Goretex clothing and boots, versus cotton, canvas and leather. The Bosnia campaigns reminded the Army about cold and wet operations, and it was able to either institute or accellerate the Clothe the Soldier introduction. The webpage smudge the actual end of the Cold War to five years later, perhaps so the better and more comfortable kit can be used.

My impressions -

Socks grey not green.
Warmth layer - very misleading.
Underwear - waffle cotton tops and bottoms were just fine until the Army issued polypro.
Helmet covers - no one had worn out combat shirts to rip up. QM wanted them back.
Boots - again leaning too far forward to allow Goretex versus old-school.
CF Goretex jacket - ditto. Combat Jackets were all there was for the longest time.
Stealth suits - ever heard of them?
Shelter Half - correct but there were plenty of acceptable alternatives.
Pocket knives - there is no man on the planet who opened a brand new C5 without breaking his fingernails.
Canteens - insulated canteens were definately a Bosnia innovation.
CF Flashlight - very misleading insistence on US made green lights.
Pad, pen and pencil - no mention of FMPs

If anyone wants, I can message 4 pages of observations. Scott's experiences no doubt differ, but no two units or organizations were every identical.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

My impressions -

Socks grey not green.
Warmth layer - very misleading.
Underwear - waffle cotton tops and bottoms were just fine until the Army issued polypro.
Helmet covers - no one had worn out combat shirts to rip up. QM wanted them back.
Boots - again leaning too far forward to allow Goretex versus old-school.
CF Goretex jacket - ditto. Combat Jackets were all there was for the longest time.
Stealth suits - ever heard of them?
Shelter Half - correct but there were plenty of acceptable alternatives.
Pocket knives - there is no man on the planet who opened a brand new C5 without breaking his fingernails.
Canteens - insulated canteens were definately a Bosnia innovation.
CF Flashlight - very misleading insistence on US made green lights.
Pad, pen and pencil - no mention of FMPs

If anyone wants, I can message 4 pages of observations. Scott's experiences no doubt differ, but no two units or organizations were every identical.

Perhaps thye stealth suit = ghilli suit? They were for the most part ad-hoc, but certainly not for everyone. The Brisith Dennison smock was on issue to snipers under a Cdn NSN, but again, not something just any one could order (or wear).

Goretex in the cold war? There were those goofy oversize goretex socks, but I never saw any other goretex during the cold war time period aside from a set of goretex work boots issued around 1991. The airforce had goretex mind you, lots of it, but all of it in blue.

I would have to look up the NSN of the shelter half to see if it was cold war era. All I remember was the bog standard ground sheet. You could so great things with it, but it was no shelter half.

When it came to flashlights, they are right. There was only the straight or right angle US flashlights, with the multitude of filters. I did manage to order in some Brinkman flashlights out of the depot around 1980, but they were not an army light. It wasn't until a engineer in Bosnia compalined on W5 that they had to buy their own maglights in order to clear mines that they suddenly became availble. The sysytem seems to be saturated with flashlights these days, but most of them bumped over to local purchase to control usage.

I noted the absence of the field message pad as well. They are commercially availble. Add the little canvas cover with all the pens and the whole thing will easily set you back $20 or so.

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by rob love

Perhaps thye stealth suit = ghilli suit? They were for the most part ad-hoc, but certainly not for everyone. The Brisith Dennison smock was on issue to snipers under a Cdn NSN, but again, not something just any one could order (or wear).

Goretex in the cold war? There were those goofy oversize goretex socks, but I never saw any other goretex during the cold war time period aside from a set of goretex work boots issued around 1991.

When it came to flashlights, they are right. There was only the straight or right angle US flashlights, with the multitude of filters. I did manage to order in some Brinkman flashlights out of the depot around 1980, but they were not an army light. It wasn't until a engineer in Bosnia compalined on W5 that they had to buy their own maglights in order to clear mines that they suddenly became availble.

To add to Rob's comments.

The "Stealth Suit" they are referring to is the Gortex Jacket Liner made by Peerless. They were a common 2 CMBG kit shop item, but were from the Yugoslavia era. They were popular as they flew under the radar better than US rain jackets. The one I had was labelled 1996.

The first pair of wide scale issue of Goretex boots were the "Prospectors" issued for IFOR Bosnia, in late 1995 early 1996. This was the same time we got the first run Goretex Combat Jacket, and the fall apart when wet, leather palmed Combat Gloves.

Rob, you're dead on regarding the Mini Maglight. We received those while I was at 2 CER in 1996, as you stated, after the Passionate Eye segment on Mark Isfeld. IIRC, the program was called "The Price of Duty". As Sappers, we also got Super Leatherman's at the same time. To me, the is was the lowest part of the Decade of Darkness, where it took big negative press like that to get a better flashlight and pliers, never mind the big items like the LSVW.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Straight and angle head 2-D cell flashlights are what I remember. Slider ON OFF and a third setting for a Morse Code button. They came in green, black and yellow. The bulb fitted into a clever wire holder and was almost indestructible that way. The butt cap unscrewed for a selection of red, white, blue and clear filters. Used judiciously, the batteries lasted many days.

The Op East Wind site states, only one particular US manufacturer is acceptable. Hmm? No. I recall reading Mine Safety Associates on some of mine. Same company that makes respirator filters.

[maple_leaf_eh]

There is a late 80's Germany biography by an RCR soldier, James Davis, called, "The Sharp End". He was in recce platoon. One ex the colonel had the companies attacking the wrong hill. Cpl (or MCpl) Shinglefoot comes up on net and in clear tells Niner he's doing things wrong. A colleague of mine was also in recce platoon and listening to the net too, and he tells the same story.

After his retirement, Shinglefoot goes on to write a book about his time in Germany. One piece of kit he mentions is the stealth suit which he likened to a personal weather forcefield - nothing except heavy weather could stop the guys. The writer went a little off-plumb when he mused about why pay expensive Canadians when Ghurkas or other mercenaries could do just as good a job.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

Straight and angle head 2-D cell flashlights are what I remember. Slider ON OFF and a third setting for a Morse Code button. They came in green, black and yellow. The bulb fitted into a clever wire holder and was almost indestructible that way. The butt cap unscrewed for a selection of red, white, blue and clear filters. Used judiciously, the batteries lasted many days.

The Op East Wind site states, only one particular US manufacturer is acceptable. Hmm? No. I recall reading Mine Safety Associates on some of mine. Same company that makes respirator filters.

The straight or angle head 2 D cell flashlights in green, black or yellow were the US pattern flashlights. And in the area under those spare filters rested a spare PR2 light bulb in case the main one burned out. Many guys never knew the spare was there. I recall them having some kind of certification seal that they were safe for use in mines...never paid much attention to it. But I believe they are considered the US pattern of flashlight. Earlier models did not have the plastic guards around the switch, that was a later change up.