Canadian Cold War re-enactment information

[rob love]

So looking at that, I would say the Iltis were not fully implemented until 1988. The Iltis you show the history for appears to have sat in a supply depot until it went to a work center for conversion. It was then issued for the first time to the Airborne in May of 88.

I take it this means the M151A2 remained in that role until about that date as well. I recall the parts still being actively in the supply system around 88.

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by rob love

So looking at that, I would say the Iltis were not fully implemented until 1988. The Iltis you show the history for appears to have sat in a supply depot until it went to a work center for conversion. It was then issued for the first time to the Airborne in May of 88.

I take it this means the M151A2 remained in that role until about that date as well. I recall the parts still being actively in the supply system around 88.

Hopefully Steve Hawken chimes in. His 151 was a Missile Launcher Carrier, and IIRC was still in the system until 1990.

EDIT, I don't have it handy but I actually found the publication that showed how to prep the TOW M151A2 for parachute operations which features none other than Steve Hawken's M151A2. It was dated for the early 90s as well. As a side note, most of us dream of finding an in service pic of our rigs and here Hawken gets a whole publication showcasing his.... some guy's luck eh.

[Harry Moon]

There was a small Cold War event this past weekend at Fort Rodd Hill in Victoria BC. Hosted by the Victoria Esquimalt Military Re-enactors Association. I'll look for pics.

[Perry Kitson]

Scott,
You mentioned the FN rifle, as a reservist I know we used it up to 1987, and we still had 2, 3.5" rocket launchers in our weapons lock up until 1979.

Perry

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by Perry Kitson

Scott,
You mentioned the FN rifle, as a reservist I know we used it up to 1987, and we still had 2, 3.5" rocket launchers in our weapons lock up until 1979.

Perry

In my neck of the woods, the switch was happening 1989ish. I was in BC mind you, so they may have implemented the new small arms from east to west. 3.5" Rocket... Now thats Old School

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak

I was searching on the web and came across a few sources for the 82 Pattern webbing kit, which would be of interest to those interested in Cold War re-enactment.

Ref : http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/...rn_webbing.pdf

I am still looking for a hard copy of the original users manual that was in a handbook format.

I came across the following web page that has all sorts of training manuals from the Canadian Cold War period.

Ref. : http://www.operationeastwind.com/wik...cific_Training


The following web page has some details on various kit, such as clothing...

Ref : http://www.operationeastwind.com/wiki/Main_Page

Scroll down to the Canadian kit.....

Ref : http://www.operationeastwind.com/wiki/Canadian_Forces

Another link. Ref: http://mpmuseum.org/securequip2.html

Of course, this is just for re-enactors, and may not really apply to what actually happened in-the-day, but it seems a good starting point.

Your thoughts?

Cheers!

Stuart

One of the founders of this group also posts on one of the M151 specific forums I belong to. I gave a rather long dissertation over there regarding their Canadian "kit list".

Short answer, and i'm sure Ed Story could probably expand even better, the one thing these guys have completely correct is that they are at least not wearing CADPAT. Beyond that, there are many holes.

The Cold War completed its final thaw in 1991. In 1991, we did not have Gortex Jackets (1995) or Elcan Scopes on the C7 (late 1992). This was in the Regular Army. Reservists, which is what they portray, didn't get these items at the Unit level until much later.

The jist of what I got was essentially that some items were chosen based on comfort (Gortex) and availability (airsoft M16A2 vs FN). Frankly, if you're carrying the wrong rifle, and wearing the wrong jacket, there is little else to redeem it in my eyes. Most of the time i'm really not into this stuff, but in this case they sort of branded themselves as providing the period correct experience, and if you've never lived dismounted in a four seasons jacket in the early spring or late fall rains, your missing out on the "experience"

[rob love]

I went to 3 RCR in the spring of 1987, and they did not bother to issue me a FN rifle, as the C7 rifles were en route at that point and showed up within the first few weeks that I was there. As the new guy to the section, I got boned with having to take the 3 day conversion course......the remainder of maintenance platoon merely got the 20 minute briefing from the weapons tech sgt.

3 RCR were the first in Canada to get them after CFE got theirs. The reason for this was that 3RCR were heading back to Germany in their regular rotation with 2VP the next summer, so they had to train with the new rifle. My recollection was that I received a brand new rifle with a 1986 date prefix.

I was a little surprised to visit my old militia unit in 1990 to find they were still waiting to change over, but as others have mentioned, the reserves get their equipment after the regular forces requirements have been satisfied.

[Ed Storey]

As one who on more than one occasion has lurked and pounced, I can certainly profess to my unfavourable view of re-enacting. From my observations, re-enacting seems to attract a demographic who generally do not reflect the era being portrayed and use the excuse that fun and finances over-rides research and presentation - usually all in the name of honouring the Veteran. I fully understand that even 20 years ago that WWII uniform/equipment information was not that easy to find although this is not the case these days as there is a lot of reliable internet and print sources that an enthusiast can access.

I had a look at the Operation Eastwind website and I must admit that I was impressed at the amount of work that had gone into the site. As with any work of this type, there are always errors and omissions and I always wonder where their information has been drawn from. I was pleased to see in the images that I looked at that this group has not fallen into the trap of representing an Airborne or Highland unit which seems to be the norm for most re-enacting groups. I agree with Scott's comment 'if you've never lived dismounted in a four seasons jacket in the early spring or late fall rains, your missing out on the "experience"'.

That being said, most National and Regimental Museums don't seem to understand the nuances of uniforms, insignia and equipment either, so the perpetuation of errors and misconceptions is not confined to just the re-enactment community. Museum sponsored re-enactment units also suffer from the same errors so there is lots of work that can be done to improve presentations.

Obviously it is easy for me to sit here and preach 'from on high'. From my selfish perspective I could latch myself onto the re-enacting community and mentor from now until the end of my days; but that means I am the one researching, paying for the parking, making the photocopies, doing the scanning, buying the books, reviewing imagery and analyzing the data - all for free. I certainly do not mind helping, but from my opinion the re-enacting community (other than the faces) has not changed and it still presents itself to the public in the same fashion that they did back in the 1970s - all fun and very little substance.

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak

Scott,
Would you be willing to expand/modify their list to correct the inaccurate information? I guess it is one thing to criticize what others have done, and it is another thing to use your own expertise, knowledge and experience to create a better version of a Cold War re-enactor kit list.

<Truncated>

Cheers!

Stuart

As I mentioned elsewhere on here, i'm not into the "dress up" aspects of the hobby. Like Ed, I am also fairly militant about being period correct and accurate. I went to some fairly great lengths to ensure my M151A2 was dead on to the point of fly shit in pepper in some cases like comms eqpt, paint and markings. That said, I generally don't expect the same level of intensity from others, but if someone advertises themselves as being correct, then I may chime in if there are inconsistencies.

The only reason I even bothered to respond to the Eastwind guys post was because they branded themselves as being the "real McCoy" re-enactors and then posted a few photos of the not period correct items I mentioned above. I couldn't help it... One of my weaknesses I guess When I saw your link I actually debated even putting my original response post up for fear of the rabbit hole.

Truth is Stuart, I barely have enough time to use my expertise for my own endeavours these days. So to answer your question: The coats and weapons are wrong as mentioned by myself and others. Full stop. I did read through their list back when I originally responded, but I don't recall all the other minor things. Like I said before, if you have the coats and rifles wrong, it doesn't really matter to me whats in your rucksack.

[maple_leaf_eh]

I looked at each Canadian tab on the list Operation East Wind site. The biggest complaint I have is their tolerance of Clothe The Soldier and Goretex clothing and boots, versus cotton, canvas and leather. The Bosnia campaigns reminded the Army about cold and wet operations, and it was able to either institute or accellerate the Clothe the Soldier introduction. The webpage smudge the actual end of the Cold War to five years later, perhaps so the better and more comfortable kit can be used.

My impressions -

Socks grey not green.
Warmth layer - very misleading.
Underwear - waffle cotton tops and bottoms were just fine until the Army issued polypro.
Helmet covers - no one had worn out combat shirts to rip up. QM wanted them back.
Boots - again leaning too far forward to allow Goretex versus old-school.
CF Goretex jacket - ditto. Combat Jackets were all there was for the longest time.
Stealth suits - ever heard of them?
Shelter Half - correct but there were plenty of acceptable alternatives.
Pocket knives - there is no man on the planet who opened a brand new C5 without breaking his fingernails.
Canteens - insulated canteens were definately a Bosnia innovation.
CF Flashlight - very misleading insistence on US made green lights.
Pad, pen and pencil - no mention of FMPs

If anyone wants, I can message 4 pages of observations. Scott's experiences no doubt differ, but no two units or organizations were every identical.