Canadian Centurion tanks question

[James P]

All this talk about Centurions was me wondering if anyone has one section to spare for my little collection of track ?

[jdmcm]

I can help you out with that James, PM me

John

[Darrell Zinck]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Does anyone know the fate of this Lahr Centurion Mk 11 Gate Guardian?

Attachment 101400

Hi Ed

I am fairly certain the thw that one I posted of in Moncton is the Mk11 that was "guarding" Lahr.

regards
Darrell

[Ed Storey]

I agree, I just conducted a Google Maps recce and the street view images do show what appears to be Mk 11 in Moncton.

[Dan Martel]

All this Centurion talk got me to take another look at my copy of Don Dingwall's The Centurion in Canadian Service (2005) and noticed this quote:

"When the 105mm gun was installed in Centurions, regardless of nationality, the loader's hatch had to be turned 180 degrees and moved to the extreme outside edge of the turret roof, as the recoil of the L7 gun would almost certainly have removed the lower legs of the loader, even though the breech assemblies of the 20 pounder and the 105mm guns were virtually identical in size."

Two questions. First, how does one move a hatch on a tank turret roof? Cutting a new place for the hatch is one thing, but how do you fill in the space where the hatch once was? It's the "how do you fill in the turret escape hatch at the rear of the turret" problem all over again.

Second, wouldn't the loader be sitting inside the turret assisting the gunner during the operation of the gun, rather than standing half out of the turret waiting to lose his legs?

Once again, I turn to those with superior Centurion knowledge to me to answer my questions. How does one move a turret hatch and where is the loader during the operation of the 105mm gun.

Thank you, gentlemen,
Dan.

[David Herbert]

I agree Dan. The quote you give simply does not make sense. It is certainly possible to weld a plate into a hole and cut a new hole but there is very little scope for that as the turret roof of a tank is pretty well covered with stuff that has to be where it is and if the loaders hatch of a 20pdr Centurion did not cause problems, why would it with the 105 as it is only the tube and the ammo that is different.

David

[Ed Storey]

Perhaps the centre section of the turret was removed and reworked during upgrades?

[David Herbert]

No, those are two different turrets - from new. Almost everything is different in detail. The bins on the sides are superficially similar but actually the whole turret was redisigned.

David

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by David Herbert

No, those are two different turrets - from new. ... but actually the whole turret was redisigned.

Sorry I don't know how to put two quotes in from two different posts or I would've included Ed's post as well.

I have information from the website Missing-Lynx which had some good threads about the Centurion. One of the posters, Ossie Orsbourne, had some very good data. For example, the Centurion Mk 3 was built between 1948 and 1956, armed with a 20-pdr and a Besa 7.92mm machine-gun. A total of 2833 were built, with three different turret types. The remainder of the factory built Centurions were 221 Mk 5 from 1956 to 1958 (with four different turrets), 108 Mk 8 (with a new turret design), one Mk 9 and 155 Mk 10 (again, a new turret design). The last Centurion was built in 1962.

What this tells us is that most of the Centurions in service started out as a Mk 3 and were upgraded over time. According to the Centurion information available on Clive Law's Ram Tank website (which I wish someone would resurrect), all of Canada's 334 gun tank Centurions were obtained from 1952 to 1954.

As for turrets, further information given (author unknown) is that the Mk 3 turret initially had a rear escape hatch, then came with the hatch welded and finally without a hatch at all. Canada seems to have purchased later-build Mk 3's with turrets sans the escape hatch.

Finally, found with the turret information, is the cryptic "Conversion to Mk 5 consisted of replacing the Besa coax machine gun with a Browning. Adding a loaders episcope and moving the wireless operators hatch was done at Base Workshops or on rebuild, some never had the hatch modification done. By wireless operator's hatch I presume the quote is referring to what we've been calling the loaders hatch. I don't know if the hatch modification mentioned in the quote is the same one that Don Dingwall is talking about.

What I think is required now is an overhead photograph of every one of Canada's Centurion gun tanks. Especially before and after shots of all those upgraded to Mk 5/2. Shouldn't be hard to get.

Cheers,
Dan.

[strat1]

There was a production Mk III late turret style , which already had the modified loaders hatch in the new position. As seen in this turret illustration .

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by strat1

There was a production Mk III late turret style , which already had the modified loaders hatch in the new position. As seen in this turret illustration .

Thanks Anthony. Another clue in the puzzle. It's possible that the Canadian Centurions, coming with late style turrets, always had the modified loader's hatch.

Where did you get that great illustration?

Cheers,
Dan.

[Robin Craig]

While we have the collected brains of Centurion knowledge focused, are these boxes for a Centurion? Malcolm does your have these? They are for the inside of the turret I am told

[strat1]

Dan

The Illustration comes from Barry Beldams book, The Serious Modellers Guide to : Canadian Centurions and other information from the Canadian Centurion DVD Reference set.

Anthony

[jdmcm]

Any idea where one can pick those references up?

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi John

ABE Books has one:

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Boo...srp1-_-title13



I guess "Quartermaster Depot" used to have them but I think they've gone under.



regards
Darrell

[Darrell Zinck]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I agree, I just conducted a Google Maps recce and the street view images do show what appears to be Mk 11 in Moncton.

Hi Ed

Oh, there is a Mk 11 there in Moncton alright (for now). No need for Google for that fact.

Based on photos and layout of each, I think they are the same one.

regards
Darrell

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Dan Martel

According to the Centurion information available on Clive Law's Ram Tank website (which I wish someone would resurrect), all of Canada's 334 gun tank Centurions were obtained from 1952 to 1954.

I've managed to get a way-back machine version of Ram Tank online. If you're interested in the Centurion CAR numbers and other details, it's worth a look.

Ramtank.ca

Cheers,
Dan.

[jdmcm]

I would like to have Barry's book, but at $120 US plus shipping, I will wait for the movie!

John

[Dan Martel]

I have a document dated April 5, 1962, which lists all of the equipment held by the Canadian Army at that time. It contains some interesting (to me, anyway) information on Centurion holdings. In early 1962 the Army had 334 Centurion gun tanks and 9 Centurion armoured recovery vehicles. Of these 58 and 3 were in Germany, 90 and 3 were allocated to units in Canada, 64 and 2 were being used by schools, and the remaining 109 and 1 were in depot stock. The 58 gun tanks in Germany represents both unit holdings and war reserve.

(For those interested, the Army was also operating 270 Sherman tanks.)

Of the 334 gun tanks, 290 are identified as tank medium, 32 as tank control and 12 as tank command.

The document states that 5 Centurion bridgelayers and 3 Centurion AVRE were expected to be in the hands of troops by 1963. In fact, only 4 bridgelayers were obtained, and that was in 1966. No AVRE's were ever acquired.

Under missiles it shows that the SS11 was also expected in 1963. Twenty-two are shown as going to be tank mounted. Sixteen of the tank-mounted missiles would be located in Germany. While the SS11B1 was acquired, none were ever mounted on a tank in Canadian service, although I have seen a schematic of such an animal.

Finally, under electronics, by the end of 1962 the Army expected to have 80 Centurion infra-red equipment sets. Fifty-eight sets were allocated to Germany, one per gun tank.

The Army also had 1,986 AFV mounted .30-cal MMG's. Fifty-nine were allocated to Germany, or one per gun tank and a spare.

FYI for those of you as interested in these things as I am.

Cheers,
Dan.

[Ed Storey]

Those are some interesting statistics, here is a 1960 artist's concept drawing of the SS11 B1 mounted on a Centurion.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

... here is a 1960 artist's concept drawing of the SS11 B1 mounted on a Centurion.

Yes, that is just like the profile schematic I saw. The missile launchers were mounted on the mantlet.

I read in the Armour Profile (Remember those?)on the Centurion 5 that at one point the Brits thought to mount a Swingfire missile on the mantlet, but that never went forward.

Personally I think its a bad idea to have two main weapon systems on a large vehicle crewed by four. They're busy enough driving, shooting and communicating.

Cheers,
Dan.

[jdmcm]

Malcolm

I am on the hunt for a bustle rack for a Centurion, exactly like the one on your tank, haven't had any luck finding one, would you be able to make a few measurements of yours so I could take a crack at re-creating one from scratch? I know it's a lot to ask and you guys are busy out there, but if you had time at some point it would be greatly appreciated

Regards
John

[Robin Craig]

John,

I am up at Oshawa in October and can make a template and transfer to paper and mail that, but wont be until October 6th.

Malcolm,

re my earlier post Brian is looking at turret stowage re those boxes.

[jdmcm]

Robin

that would be fantastic! Thanks so much

John

[Malcolm Towrie]

Originally Posted by Robin Craig

While we have the collected brains of Centurion knowledge focused, are these boxes for a Centurion? Malcolm does your have these? They are for the inside of the turret I am told

Robin, yes, we have one of these at the back of the turret. You can also see to the left two "hooks" for hanging another one.
Strangely heavy construction, not sheet metal like other bins. For something very fragile?

Malcolm

[Robin Craig]

Great news Malcolm, I will donate one for yours and if John doesn't have one or needs one he can have the other one and make a repro off it if he needs more.

[jdmcm]

Outstanding Robin!

John

[Malcolm Towrie]

John,
First part of basket. You can start fabbing!

Malcolm

[jdmcm]

I don't even know what to say, the people on this forum are just a fantastic group of folks, even you Jim! Malcolm thank you so much, that is just an incredibly nice thing you have done on this holiday Monday! Thank you so much

Regards
John

[Malcolm Towrie]

Originally Posted by Robin Craig

Great news Malcolm, I will donate one for yours and if John doesn't have one or needs one he can have the other one and make a repro off it if he needs more.

Thanks, Robin. I checked the Users' Manual. Those heavy duty containers are for Grenades, Hand, three, for the storage off. Makes sense now.