Balkans Campaign: CMPs in Greece?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

On this forum I found one picture of a CMP during the Balkans Campaign: a captured CMP F15 15-cwt truck, photographed on 8 May 1941 when German troops were marching to Athens.


As I am interested to learn more about the use of CMPs in Greece, but knowing little of the Balkans Campaign, I decided to do some reading up on the subject. On the U.S. Army Center of Military History website I found some material on the The German Campaigns on the Balkans. From this source I quote:

Chapter 13: The Defense Forces - III. British and Imperial Forces

From 7 through 31 March the headquarters of I Australian Corps with corps troops, the 6th Australian and 2d New Zealand Divisions, and the 1st Tank Brigade of the 2d British Armored Division, as well as service troops, disembarked at the ports of Piraeus and Volos. These forces Ad been assembled near Alexandria, Egypt, and shipped across the Mediterranean at the beginning of March. Immediately upon arrival, the tank brigade moved to the lower Vardar west of Salonika, the New Zealand division took up positions north of Mount Olympus in the bend of the Aliakmon River, and the Australian division blocked the Aliakmon Valley up to the Vermion Range. General Wilson established his headquarters northwest of Larisa. The Royal Air Force continued to operate from airfields in central and southern Greece. There were few planes that could be diverted to this theater in addition to defending Malta, providing air cover for the widely dispersed ground forces fighting in North Africa, and safeguarding the naval convoys across the Mediterranean.

The British forces were almost fully motorized, but their equipment was suitable for desert warfare, not for the steep mountain roads in Greece. There was a shortage of tanks and antiaircraft guns. The lines of communication across the Mediterranean were very vulnerable despite the fact that the British Navy dominated the Aegean Sea. All convoys had to pass close to enemy-held islands in the Aegean. The logistical problems were aggravated by the limited availability of shipping and the low capacity of the Greek ports. Only one single-line railroad and one good highway led northward from Piraeus, the principal port of debarkation.

Who knows more about the vehicles used by the:
- headquarters of I Australian Corps with corps troops,
- 6th Australian Division,
- 2nd New Zealand Division,
- the 1st Tank Brigade of the 2d British Armored Division,
- as well as RAF and service troops?

Judging by the captured F15, some of these units employed CMP trucks - I hope to find more information about them.

Any input is welcome!

Thanks,
Hanno

[Mike K]

Hanno

more info here : http://home.freeuk.com/johndillon/greece.htm

Was the ill fated Greek campaign the result of a politician sticking his beak in and meddling in strategic matters ....a certain portly cigar smoker

Mike

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

more info here : http://home.freeuk.com/johndillon/greece.htm
Was the ill fated Greek campaign the result of a politician sticking his beak in and meddling in strategic matters ....a certain portly cigar smoker

Thanks Mike, makes for interesting reading. And yes, some people want to be larger than life during their lifetime. . .

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

the 1st Tank Brigade of the 2d British Armored Division

At Wikipedia I found the following:

1st Armoured Brigade
It was based in the United Kingdom initially as part of the 1st Armoured Division and then the newly formed 2nd Armoured Division. In January 1941 it was shipped out to Egypt. When Greece was invaded the 1st Armoured Brigade was sent with General Maitland Wilson's unsuccessful attempt at stopping the German invasion. On 29 April 1941 it was evacuated to Egypt.

The 1st Armoured Brigade served briefly in the Western Desert Campaign with the 7th Armoured Division at the Battle of El Alamein. The brigade was disbanded on 21 November 1942.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Who knows more about the vehicles used by the:
- 2nd New Zealand Division

In New Zealand in the Second World War - To Greece I found some pictures proving the New Zealanders did use CMP trucks in Greece.

Who knows which types they were supplied with: 15, 30, 60-cwt? Ford, Chevrolet or both makes?

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Who knows more about the vehicles used by the:
- headquarters of I Australian Corps with corps troops,
- 6th Australian Division

From 'A Great Risk in a good cause' I learned the Australians used CMPs as well.

Photo caption: "Transport vehicles passing through the village of Perdik during the withdrawal from Vevi, 13 April 1941."

Looks like an 11 Cab 15-cwt with 2B1 body. But Ford or Chev?

Thanks,
Hanno

Addition: later I found this pic at the AWM as well: "ID Number: 007649; Summary: GREECE, 1941-04-13. TRANSPORT PASSING THROUGH THE VILLAGE OF PERDIKA DURING THE WITHDRAWAL FROM THE MONASTIER GAP. NOTE: IN SPITE OF THE INSISTENCE DURING TRAINING TO THE DISPERSAL OF VEHICLES DURING CONVOY, LITTLE ATTENTION WAS PAID TO THIS IMPORTANT FACTOR ALTHOUGH, DURING THIS PERIOD, THE GERMAN AIR FORCE WAS PARTICULARLY ACTIVE ALONG THE ROADS."

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

From 'A Great Risk in a good cause' I learned the Australians used CMPs as well.

The AWM yielded a couple more pictures.

First one has a 15-cwt in the background:
"ID Number: P04680.002; Place made: Greece; Date made: c April 1941; Summary: An Australian Army Ford 4x4 artillery tractor towing a No 27 Mk I limber and an 18 pounder Mk IV field gun, which has just negotiated a stone bridge through the winding and steep Verroia Pass, Greece. Approximately 1400 units of these Ford vehicles were purchased by the Australian Army between 1939 and 1941 and many of these were converted to four wheel drive by fitting a Marmon-Herrington front wheel drive kit to the chassis. 441 of these vehicles were sent to the Middle East in 1940 and 54 of these subsequently saw service during the Greek campaign in April 1941. These vehicles were powered by an 85 horsepower V8 engine with a four speed gearbox and two speed transfer case. They had leaf spring suspension and were also fitted with an Australian roadster style cab, making them a uniquely Australian vehicle. The Official designation for these vehicles was Tractor 4x4, Artillery (Aust), LP No 3 and 3A (fitted with a winch). This particular vehicle, with the army registration number 9964 was transported to Greece aboard the MV Comliebank but was later abandoned when the Australian forces were evacuated. "

Second pic shows a couple of 4x2 15-cwts:
"ID Number: 007816; Maker: Silk, George; Date made: April 1941; Summary: Greece. April 1941. During the withdrawal, motor transports and other vehicles passing through rugged country."

[cletrac (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Photo caption: "Transport vehicles passing through the village of Perdik during the withdrawal from Vevi, 13 April 1941."

Looks like an 11 Cab 15-cwt with 2B1 body. But Ford or Chev?

They have square vents so both the front ones are Fords. I can't tell on the back one.

[Keith Webb]

Originally Posted by cletrac

They have square vents so both the front ones are Fords. I can't tell on the back one.

Also the shape of the radiator protector - they look to be F15s.

[cliff]

here is another #3 gun tractor from the AWM

ID Number: P04680.001; Place made: Greece; Date made: c April 1941; Summary: An Australian Army 18 pounder Mk IV field gun and a No 27 Mk I Limber, being towed by an LP No 3 or 3A artillery tractor through the Verroia Pass, Greece. The gun tractor is packed with soldiers and the gun traverse platform is visible stowed on top of the limber. Australian infantrymen are also visible trudging up the hill in the background. Credit line: Donor G Swinton

[T. Metsovitis]

CMPs captured by the Germans in Greece could just as well have been vehicles in Greek service. The Hellenic Army among other aid received from Britain, got 78 Ford 30 cwt and 44 F15s. A photo of the last type appears in one of the Panzer Colours books. I'll try to post some pics tomorrow.

Fyll

[T. Metsovitis]

Here is the promised pic. On the front bumper is the Hellenic Army number and the hexagon on the mudguard, serving as a background for the "WH" is the insignia of the 19th Motorised Division. The photo comes from "Panzer Colours II" by Bruce Culver.

Fyll

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I love this thread! I particularly like the Heer gentleman, whom I asume is Feldgendarmarie and directing traffic?

As to the source of the AIF and NZEF trucks, these must in my opinion have been amongst those assembled in or and shipped out to, Alexandria. These were then issued subsequently to he Dominion forces and then by agreement between the respective Governments, payment was made retrospectively it would seem in some case from sometime in 1941 by Pounds Sterling to the Ministry of Supply I would imagine via the High Commissions in London. Shane has copies of the Australian version of the paperwork! I have seen Xeroxes myself and it explained a lot. I doubt that there is anything in the Kew, London archives on this so thanks AWM! And Shane!

The trucks (and carriers etc.) as issued and then sold were sent to Greece, and Palestine/Trans-Jordan and as we know survivors were eventually shipped back to the Antipodes and the rest is history!

As to the Hellenic Army trucks, that's new to me and I can only assume that as with Cheverolet WAs assembled in Alexandria and sold there to the War Office in Egypt (that were then sent to Greece: see Wheels & Tracks photo in Athens) that these were local-theatre assembly and then sold to the Hellenic Government.

I regret that my dad was in post-war Greece (1946-7) and therefore cannot add anything. He has however been a small mine of info about British trucks in Greece in the immediate post-war era when the Communists were very much a force to be reckoned with. I gather that they used Bedfords then.

[cliff]

David the Ford M/H LP No 3 or 3A artillery tractors would have been shipped with the AIF forces from Australia and not issued by the British to the AIF as they were built here and I believe the AIF were the only one's using them.

[Mike K]

I don't think I've mentioned it before . My uncle, Edward Kelly VX6350 , was captured by the Germans . He was in the 2/7 battalion and he spent 4 years as a POW in Germany .I'm not sure of the place of capture , probably either Greece or Crete. He said to me once " we were cannon fodder ". He always refered to rank stripes , corporal etc., as 'hooks'. Must be a peculiar aussi-ism.

Mike

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

IHe always refered to rank stripes , corporal etc., as 'hooks'. Must be a peculiar aussi-ism

Mike..
Probably served with some Canadians..I was quite proud of my "Hooks" when I got the first two..and really proud when I added the third "Hook"..

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Cheers. I am sure that Aussie Holden-bodied Chevrolets and any other staff cars, etc., that were shipped out through the Canal to Alexandria were candidates for sending to Greece!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

All, thanks for the replies! I'd like to focus this thread on the CMP vehicles alone, particularly which units used which types of CMP trucks. If we cab get a clear picture of that, we can backtrack where they came from.

Originally Posted by T. Metsovitis

CMPs captured by the Germans in Greece could just as well have been vehicles in Greek service. The Hellenic Army among other aid received from Britain, got 78 Ford 30 cwt and 44 F15s.

Fyll, thanks for this - invaluable input! Any more info about the use of CMP trucks by the Greek Army, or their use after being captured by the German Army?

If I am not mistaken, the CMP trucks you mention were part of the shipment including those Vickers Dutchman tanks, right?

Sorry for asking all these questions, but inquiring minds want to know!

Thanks,
Hanno

[cliff]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

All, thanks for the replies! I'd like to focus this thread on the CMP vehicles alone, particularly which units used which types of CMP trucks. If we can get a clear picture of that, we can backtrack where they came from.

Hanno you ask this and then mention Vickers Dutchman Tanks?????

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by cliff

Hanno you ask this and then mention Vickers Dutchman Tanks?????

Well Cliff, if we know the CMPs and Vickers tanks came in the same shipment, it will improve our possibilities of tracing back where they were sent from.

H.

P.S.: and what else would you expect from a Dutchman, eh?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Hanno and I have dialogued off-piste about the earliest British orders for CMPs. I have had a re-think about the possible origin of any trucks sent to Greece. My first thought is that 3,000 F15s were supplied under Demand Supply-Mechanical (S/M) 2002 for delivery to Egypt. This meant assembly in Ford's plant in Alexandria, which was in fact a private company that had pre-war had the temerity to sell in 'British Egypt' Cologne-built Eiffels, or the two or so bases.

The earliest that any supplies could have reached Alexandria I have worked out over the years is mid-December 1940. The photo in WHEELS & TRACKS of the Alpha pack F15 is dated January 1941 which is to me very likely to have been the earliest that series assembly was undertaken. I have said before that DND records show the very earliest shipments of British-order CMPs as being in lateish September 1940. Production only commenced around beginning of September! There was then a problem of slotting in these enormous quantities of crates in the available commercial shipping ex-Halifax. Without any official evidence so far, and I am sure that it will turn up one day, I am sticking by December '40 as the earliest feasible month for the very first arrival of shipments, assemblies and deliveries. That same month any CMPs issued to the AIF and NZEF in England would have started arriving, possibly ex-Canadian orders acquired by the Ministry of Supply, ready for the forces to be equipped with them in January '41. This could have included some Chevrolets as well as Fords
Looking at the known figures based on DND papers, we know that 3,000 F15s were ordered to be delivered to Alexandria. On top of that were 3200+ C15s but these were officially for English delivery though there would then have been onward shipment to Alexandria of a portion of those, and if they did January '41 is the earliest I suggest that they could have arrived. In fact S/M 2002 provided for 3500 C15s for England, and allowing for some shipping losses and in-transit losses, that still leaves over 200 C15s that were not allocated British Census Numbers. These could just have been ordered to be diverted to Alexandria although I have no evidence so far of any Mid-East theatre numbers on # 11 Cab C15s. Otherwise I can only suggest that 300-odd C15s were lost or damaged in transit. If and it is a big IF the contract record card exists then it may have further information.



My thoughts for discussion are that January 1941 must have been the earliest that any trucks could have been decided to be sent to Greece with any Commonwealth forces. With a huge influx of 15-cwt 4 x 2 trucks, arguably really not suitable for a desert campaign, perhaps they were acceptable to ship across the Med especially given Winston's diktats?

What it boils down to is that if any 15-cwt trucks in Greece were Fords, they could only have come from Egypt. Any Chevrolets could have arguably only come from England, sent to Egypt and then on to Greece.

As to CMP lorries, this gets a bit more complicated but probably the same applied. Has anyone got any evidence of 30-cwts or 3-tonners please? One of the posted photos looks as though it had a 30-cwt at least in the convoy?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

If anyone can confirm that there were CMP lorries...30-cwt and 3-ton in Greece then I'll check my stats. again and give you my reasoned opinions.

[cliff]

David a lot of the larger trucks appear to be MCP 4X2 Chev's and Ford's with all the CMP photos I have been 15cwt trucks.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

What it boils down to is that if any 15-cwt trucks in Greece were Fords, they could only have come from Egypt. Any Chevrolets could have arguably only come from England, sent to Egypt and then on to Greece.

That is why - other than following the sources of supply - it is important to find out which units were sent to Greece equiped with exactly what type of CMPs. This should help fill in the gap in David's study into the shipping and assembly of CMP trucks.
To be continued, I have not yet digested all the linked sites.

Who has access to TOE's of the units involved?

Thanks,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

As to CMP lorries, this gets a bit more complicated but probably the same applied. Has anyone got any evidence of 30-cwts or 3-tonners please? One of the posted photos looks as though it had a 30-cwt at least in the convoy?

David, one of the NZ pictures indeed shows what must be CMP 30-cwt trucks:



H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

If anyone can confirm that there were CMP lorries...30-cwt and 3-ton in Greece then I'll check my stats. again and give you my reasoned opinions.

In the thread Under New Management I posted a picture of a F30(?) 30-cwt truck:



Now - but this is pure conjecture - Crete is where the Commonwealth units went after being thrown out of Greece. Questions remain a) how much if any trucks were shipped back from mainland Greece to Crete, b) whether or not this truck ever left Crete for mainland Greece before being captured. Not the type of information to submit as proof, but. . .

H.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Thanks Shane! He can't log in so sent me the file which I converted to text and attached it here. You will note the WD vehicles:

WD Vehicles
Canadian CVT 3-ton 33
Canadian Ford 15 cwt 76
Canadian Ford 30 cwt 1

I believe that the latter two are to S/M 2002 and 2003 respectively, from Ford F15s and F30s assembled in Alexandria sent direct from Canada. The Chevrolet 3-tonners could be either CC60L/X2 4x2s from S/M 2005 (3150 sent to Egypt) or the WAs, say under V.3352 assembled and supplied in Alexandria.

Oh Hanno! S/M 2003 comprised Ford F30s for Egypt and the rest C30s for England. Assuming no alterations on delivery, which is I think practically zero chance, some were sent to the Mid-East after assembly here and then issued to the AIF et al as L 4449560 survives. Whether any arrived in sufficient time to be sent to Greece is doubtful. Earliest British-order Chevrolet assembly I can date to April 1941 and I suggest that any then shipped out to the Mid-East could not have arrived until well after that.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

Thanks Shane! He can't log in so sent me the file which I converted to text and attached it here.

Thanks! Shane, I've e-mailed you re. your login problems.

Earliest British-order Chevrolet assembly I can date to April 1941 and I suggest that any then shipped out to the Mid-East could not have arrived until well after that.

So based on this information we could conclude the AIF did not bring Chevrolet CMP trucks to Greece, right?

H.

[cliff]

WD Vehicles
Canadian CVT 3-ton 33

What does the "CVT" stand for?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

CheVroleT.

Hanno, the AIF could only have had CMPs that had been assembled in Alexandria from say January 1941. I cannot see that they brought any with them ifrom England in December '40 except for those sold to the British by the Canadians after assembly and then issued to the AIF (which is believed to have been the case but I have no definitve proof). There was I think at this stage no time for British-order trucks to have been assembled and shipped out with the AIF/NZEF to the Mid-East from England. It would appear that the vehicles shipped on to the Balkans must have been darn nearly brand new! The Germans had nice new, just run-in vehicles as a consquence I thought!