Balkans Campaign: CMPs in Greece?

[T. Metsovitis]

CMPs captured by the Germans in Greece could just as well have been vehicles in Greek service. The Hellenic Army among other aid received from Britain, got 78 Ford 30 cwt and 44 F15s. A photo of the last type appears in one of the Panzer Colours books. I'll try to post some pics tomorrow.

Fyll

[T. Metsovitis]

Here is the promised pic. On the front bumper is the Hellenic Army number and the hexagon on the mudguard, serving as a background for the "WH" is the insignia of the 19th Motorised Division. The photo comes from "Panzer Colours II" by Bruce Culver.

Fyll

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I love this thread! I particularly like the Heer gentleman, whom I asume is Feldgendarmarie and directing traffic?

As to the source of the AIF and NZEF trucks, these must in my opinion have been amongst those assembled in or and shipped out to, Alexandria. These were then issued subsequently to he Dominion forces and then by agreement between the respective Governments, payment was made retrospectively it would seem in some case from sometime in 1941 by Pounds Sterling to the Ministry of Supply I would imagine via the High Commissions in London. Shane has copies of the Australian version of the paperwork! I have seen Xeroxes myself and it explained a lot. I doubt that there is anything in the Kew, London archives on this so thanks AWM! And Shane!

The trucks (and carriers etc.) as issued and then sold were sent to Greece, and Palestine/Trans-Jordan and as we know survivors were eventually shipped back to the Antipodes and the rest is history!

As to the Hellenic Army trucks, that's new to me and I can only assume that as with Cheverolet WAs assembled in Alexandria and sold there to the War Office in Egypt (that were then sent to Greece: see Wheels & Tracks photo in Athens) that these were local-theatre assembly and then sold to the Hellenic Government.

I regret that my dad was in post-war Greece (1946-7) and therefore cannot add anything. He has however been a small mine of info about British trucks in Greece in the immediate post-war era when the Communists were very much a force to be reckoned with. I gather that they used Bedfords then.

[cliff]

David the Ford M/H LP No 3 or 3A artillery tractors would have been shipped with the AIF forces from Australia and not issued by the British to the AIF as they were built here and I believe the AIF were the only one's using them.

[Mike Kelly]

I don't think I've mentioned it before . My uncle, Edward Kelly VX6350 , was captured by the Germans . He was in the 2/7 battalion and he spent 4 years as a POW in Germany .I'm not sure of the place of capture , probably either Greece or Crete. He said to me once " we were cannon fodder ". He always refered to rank stripes , corporal etc., as 'hooks'. Must be a peculiar aussi-ism.

Mike

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

IHe always refered to rank stripes , corporal etc., as 'hooks'. Must be a peculiar aussi-ism

Mike..
Probably served with some Canadians..I was quite proud of my "Hooks" when I got the first two..and really proud when I added the third "Hook"..

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Cheers. I am sure that Aussie Holden-bodied Chevrolets and any other staff cars, etc., that were shipped out through the Canal to Alexandria were candidates for sending to Greece!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

All, thanks for the replies! I'd like to focus this thread on the CMP vehicles alone, particularly which units used which types of CMP trucks. If we cab get a clear picture of that, we can backtrack where they came from.

Originally Posted by T. Metsovitis

CMPs captured by the Germans in Greece could just as well have been vehicles in Greek service. The Hellenic Army among other aid received from Britain, got 78 Ford 30 cwt and 44 F15s.

Fyll, thanks for this - invaluable input! Any more info about the use of CMP trucks by the Greek Army, or their use after being captured by the German Army?

If I am not mistaken, the CMP trucks you mention were part of the shipment including those Vickers Dutchman tanks, right?

Sorry for asking all these questions, but inquiring minds want to know!

Thanks,
Hanno

[cliff]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

All, thanks for the replies! I'd like to focus this thread on the CMP vehicles alone, particularly which units used which types of CMP trucks. If we can get a clear picture of that, we can backtrack where they came from.

Hanno you ask this and then mention Vickers Dutchman Tanks?????

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by cliff

Hanno you ask this and then mention Vickers Dutchman Tanks?????

Well Cliff, if we know the CMPs and Vickers tanks came in the same shipment, it will improve our possibilities of tracing back where they were sent from.

H.

P.S.: and what else would you expect from a Dutchman, eh?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Hanno and I have dialogued off-piste about the earliest British orders for CMPs. I have had a re-think about the possible origin of any trucks sent to Greece. My first thought is that 3,000 F15s were supplied under Demand Supply-Mechanical (S/M) 2002 for delivery to Egypt. This meant assembly in Ford's plant in Alexandria, which was in fact a private company that had pre-war had the temerity to sell in 'British Egypt' Cologne-built Eiffels, or the two or so bases.

The earliest that any supplies could have reached Alexandria I have worked out over the years is mid-December 1940. The photo in WHEELS & TRACKS of the Alpha pack F15 is dated January 1941 which is to me very likely to have been the earliest that series assembly was undertaken. I have said before that DND records show the very earliest shipments of British-order CMPs as being in lateish September 1940. Production only commenced around beginning of September! There was then a problem of slotting in these enormous quantities of crates in the available commercial shipping ex-Halifax. Without any official evidence so far, and I am sure that it will turn up one day, I am sticking by December '40 as the earliest feasible month for the very first arrival of shipments, assemblies and deliveries. That same month any CMPs issued to the AIF and NZEF in England would have started arriving, possibly ex-Canadian orders acquired by the Ministry of Supply, ready for the forces to be equipped with them in January '41. This could have included some Chevrolets as well as Fords
Looking at the known figures based on DND papers, we know that 3,000 F15s were ordered to be delivered to Alexandria. On top of that were 3200+ C15s but these were officially for English delivery though there would then have been onward shipment to Alexandria of a portion of those, and if they did January '41 is the earliest I suggest that they could have arrived. In fact S/M 2002 provided for 3500 C15s for England, and allowing for some shipping losses and in-transit losses, that still leaves over 200 C15s that were not allocated British Census Numbers. These could just have been ordered to be diverted to Alexandria although I have no evidence so far of any Mid-East theatre numbers on # 11 Cab C15s. Otherwise I can only suggest that 300-odd C15s were lost or damaged in transit. If and it is a big IF the contract record card exists then it may have further information.



My thoughts for discussion are that January 1941 must have been the earliest that any trucks could have been decided to be sent to Greece with any Commonwealth forces. With a huge influx of 15-cwt 4 x 2 trucks, arguably really not suitable for a desert campaign, perhaps they were acceptable to ship across the Med especially given Winston's diktats?

What it boils down to is that if any 15-cwt trucks in Greece were Fords, they could only have come from Egypt. Any Chevrolets could have arguably only come from England, sent to Egypt and then on to Greece.

As to CMP lorries, this gets a bit more complicated but probably the same applied. Has anyone got any evidence of 30-cwts or 3-tonners please? One of the posted photos looks as though it had a 30-cwt at least in the convoy?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

If anyone can confirm that there were CMP lorries...30-cwt and 3-ton in Greece then I'll check my stats. again and give you my reasoned opinions.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

If anyone can confirm that there were CMP lorries...30-cwt and 3-ton in Greece then I'll check my stats. again and give you my reasoned opinions.

In the thread Under New Management I posted a picture of a F30(?) 30-cwt truck:



Now - but this is pure conjecture - Crete is where the Commonwealth units went after being thrown out of Greece. Questions remain a) how much if any trucks were shipped back from mainland Greece to Crete, b) whether or not this truck ever left Crete for mainland Greece before being captured. Not the type of information to submit as proof, but. . .

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

What it boils down to is that if any 15-cwt trucks in Greece were Fords, they could only have come from Egypt. Any Chevrolets could have arguably only come from England, sent to Egypt and then on to Greece.

That is why - other than following the sources of supply - it is important to find out which units were sent to Greece equiped with exactly what type of CMPs. This should help fill in the gap in David's study into the shipping and assembly of CMP trucks.
To be continued, I have not yet digested all the linked sites.

Who has access to TOE's of the units involved?

Thanks,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

As to CMP lorries, this gets a bit more complicated but probably the same applied. Has anyone got any evidence of 30-cwts or 3-tonners please? One of the posted photos looks as though it had a 30-cwt at least in the convoy?

David, one of the NZ pictures indeed shows what must be CMP 30-cwt trucks:



H.