Balkans Campaign: CMPs in Greece?

[cliff]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

All, thanks for the replies! I'd like to focus this thread on the CMP vehicles alone, particularly which units used which types of CMP trucks. If we can get a clear picture of that, we can backtrack where they came from.

Hanno you ask this and then mention Vickers Dutchman Tanks?????

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by cliff

Hanno you ask this and then mention Vickers Dutchman Tanks?????

Well Cliff, if we know the CMPs and Vickers tanks came in the same shipment, it will improve our possibilities of tracing back where they were sent from.

H.

P.S.: and what else would you expect from a Dutchman, eh?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Hanno and I have dialogued off-piste about the earliest British orders for CMPs. I have had a re-think about the possible origin of any trucks sent to Greece. My first thought is that 3,000 F15s were supplied under Demand Supply-Mechanical (S/M) 2002 for delivery to Egypt. This meant assembly in Ford's plant in Alexandria, which was in fact a private company that had pre-war had the temerity to sell in 'British Egypt' Cologne-built Eiffels, or the two or so bases.

The earliest that any supplies could have reached Alexandria I have worked out over the years is mid-December 1940. The photo in WHEELS & TRACKS of the Alpha pack F15 is dated January 1941 which is to me very likely to have been the earliest that series assembly was undertaken. I have said before that DND records show the very earliest shipments of British-order CMPs as being in lateish September 1940. Production only commenced around beginning of September! There was then a problem of slotting in these enormous quantities of crates in the available commercial shipping ex-Halifax. Without any official evidence so far, and I am sure that it will turn up one day, I am sticking by December '40 as the earliest feasible month for the very first arrival of shipments, assemblies and deliveries. That same month any CMPs issued to the AIF and NZEF in England would have started arriving, possibly ex-Canadian orders acquired by the Ministry of Supply, ready for the forces to be equipped with them in January '41. This could have included some Chevrolets as well as Fords
Looking at the known figures based on DND papers, we know that 3,000 F15s were ordered to be delivered to Alexandria. On top of that were 3200+ C15s but these were officially for English delivery though there would then have been onward shipment to Alexandria of a portion of those, and if they did January '41 is the earliest I suggest that they could have arrived. In fact S/M 2002 provided for 3500 C15s for England, and allowing for some shipping losses and in-transit losses, that still leaves over 200 C15s that were not allocated British Census Numbers. These could just have been ordered to be diverted to Alexandria although I have no evidence so far of any Mid-East theatre numbers on # 11 Cab C15s. Otherwise I can only suggest that 300-odd C15s were lost or damaged in transit. If and it is a big IF the contract record card exists then it may have further information.



My thoughts for discussion are that January 1941 must have been the earliest that any trucks could have been decided to be sent to Greece with any Commonwealth forces. With a huge influx of 15-cwt 4 x 2 trucks, arguably really not suitable for a desert campaign, perhaps they were acceptable to ship across the Med especially given Winston's diktats?

What it boils down to is that if any 15-cwt trucks in Greece were Fords, they could only have come from Egypt. Any Chevrolets could have arguably only come from England, sent to Egypt and then on to Greece.

As to CMP lorries, this gets a bit more complicated but probably the same applied. Has anyone got any evidence of 30-cwts or 3-tonners please? One of the posted photos looks as though it had a 30-cwt at least in the convoy?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

If anyone can confirm that there were CMP lorries...30-cwt and 3-ton in Greece then I'll check my stats. again and give you my reasoned opinions.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

If anyone can confirm that there were CMP lorries...30-cwt and 3-ton in Greece then I'll check my stats. again and give you my reasoned opinions.

In the thread Under New Management I posted a picture of a F30(?) 30-cwt truck:



Now - but this is pure conjecture - Crete is where the Commonwealth units went after being thrown out of Greece. Questions remain a) how much if any trucks were shipped back from mainland Greece to Crete, b) whether or not this truck ever left Crete for mainland Greece before being captured. Not the type of information to submit as proof, but. . .

H.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Thanks Shane! He can't log in so sent me the file which I converted to text and attached it here. You will note the WD vehicles:

WD Vehicles
Canadian CVT 3-ton 33
Canadian Ford 15 cwt 76
Canadian Ford 30 cwt 1

I believe that the latter two are to S/M 2002 and 2003 respectively, from Ford F15s and F30s assembled in Alexandria sent direct from Canada. The Chevrolet 3-tonners could be either CC60L/X2 4x2s from S/M 2005 (3150 sent to Egypt) or the WAs, say under V.3352 assembled and supplied in Alexandria.

Oh Hanno! S/M 2003 comprised Ford F30s for Egypt and the rest C30s for England. Assuming no alterations on delivery, which is I think practically zero chance, some were sent to the Mid-East after assembly here and then issued to the AIF et al as L 4449560 survives. Whether any arrived in sufficient time to be sent to Greece is doubtful. Earliest British-order Chevrolet assembly I can date to April 1941 and I suggest that any then shipped out to the Mid-East could not have arrived until well after that.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

Thanks Shane! He can't log in so sent me the file which I converted to text and attached it here.

Thanks! Shane, I've e-mailed you re. your login problems.

Earliest British-order Chevrolet assembly I can date to April 1941 and I suggest that any then shipped out to the Mid-East could not have arrived until well after that.

So based on this information we could conclude the AIF did not bring Chevrolet CMP trucks to Greece, right?

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Now - but this is pure conjecture - Crete is where the Commonwealth units went after being thrown out of Greece. Questions remain a) how much if any trucks were shipped back from mainland Greece to Crete, b) whether or not this truck ever left Crete for mainland Greece before being captured. Not the type of information to submit as proof, but. . .

From the thread In the background another clue for the types of CMP in use there and then:

Originally Posted by Rich Payne

...but not the main subject I suspect. From a current listing on ebay.de and captioned as Crete.

eBay 160250248326

Looks like another F30. No idea what the marking on the right side wing means.

H.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Nice photo.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

What it boils down to is that if any 15-cwt trucks in Greece were Fords, they could only have come from Egypt. Any Chevrolets could have arguably only come from England, sent to Egypt and then on to Greece.

That is why - other than following the sources of supply - it is important to find out which units were sent to Greece equiped with exactly what type of CMPs. This should help fill in the gap in David's study into the shipping and assembly of CMP trucks.
To be continued, I have not yet digested all the linked sites.

Who has access to TOE's of the units involved?

Thanks,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

As to CMP lorries, this gets a bit more complicated but probably the same applied. Has anyone got any evidence of 30-cwts or 3-tonners please? One of the posted photos looks as though it had a 30-cwt at least in the convoy?

David, one of the NZ pictures indeed shows what must be CMP 30-cwt trucks:



H.