Modified Conventional Pattern Trucks

[Bill Kreiner]

Thanks very much, everyone, for your very helpful replies and photos.

Local Chap: That other thread you kindly linked me to contains great photos. I'll need to study them more to learn the differences between the American G8T (is the 2G8T you refer to the same vehicle?) and the Canadian MCP Ford trucks. I'm friends with Ford expert Jim Wagner, but even he is not very familiar with the MCPs of Canada. I'm eager to learn more from you all.

Mike: That postwar booklet of GMH's wartime activities is the same one you sent me a CD of years ago, right? I'll need to dig that out to view it again.

I'm also going to dig out my Branham's books from the wartime and immediate postwar period. Only a few have Canadian sections. I know I have 1944, 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950 editions.

By the way, today at a car show in New York State, I saw a 1944 Chevy pickup, delivered new to a farmer in August of that year (according to the present owner). I wish I'd taken my camera or camera-phone with me. Now I know some were built in 1944-1945 for essential civilian use, but I also know many 1942-built ones were stored (along with 1942-built passenger cars), to be doled out during the war to those who could prove a need. Many states titled them as new vehicles in the years in which they were sold. I wasn't able to see the serial plate to determine just what this one was. The 1944-1945 models are still coded with BK codes, like the 1942s, I believe; but I think month and year of manufacture are somehow encoded on the wartime-built ones.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

To some it may seem a moot point, but since this is a very anorak subject anyway I would like to differentiate between the various “patterns” built during WW2, instead of throwing all non-CMP trucks on the “MCP heap”. Although the line between the various patterns is not always clear, I have tried to make a listing, mainly based on Vanderveen and Gregg:

1. Standard, Conventional or Commercial: used in great numbers by military users. Military modifications ranged from none, to matt paint plus black-out lighting, to off-road tyres and military cargo bodies. Canadian forces at home used mainly US type commercial trucks.
   
   
2. Modified Conventional Pattern (MCP): standard types with modifications to meet military requirements, comprising cars, utilities, 15-cwt, 2-ton and 3-ton trucks. Shipped out in large numbers, notably for use in the North African campaigns. Fitted with uprated chassis, springs, WD split rims (13, 16 and 20”), single rear tyres, RHD (for overseas use), military bumper and push bar, black out lighting system, WD towing hook, matt paint, etc.
   Over 300,000 MCP trucks were produced in Canada by Chrysler, Ford and General Motors.
   
   
3. Local Pattern, later: Australian Pattern: referred to as such to distinguish them from overseas military pattern vehicles which were also used. Most Australian Pattern vehicles produced early in the war were militarised commercial types (4x2, 4x4, 6x6). All were adaptations or modifications of commercial-type vehicles, mostly of North American origin and assembled in Australia with locally produced cabs and bodywork. Many were fitted with oversize tyres (incl. 18”), single rear.
   This class also included tracked carriers, armoured cars, tanks and trailers.
   
   
4. Department of National Defence (DND) Pattern, later: Canadian Military Pattern (CMP): a class of vehicles, devised and developed in Canada by Ford and GM, guided to a large extent by developments in Britain and fitting within British chassis (load) classifications. They combined British War Office design features (forward control, large single tyres, etc.) with American engineering (engines, transmissions, axles, etc.) and mass-production techniques. Thus main standard commercial components were used (engines, gearboxes), driven front axles patterned on the American Marmon-Herrington design, using standard type differentials. High degree of standardisation throughout the CMP range of vehicles.
   In Australia CMPs were officially known as CWO (Canadian War Office), but popularly known as “Blitz” trucks.

To be updated later, meanwhile your input is appreciated.

Thanks,

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

To complement and compliment my colleague's very well set out description, the DND (Department of National Defence) papers from 1940 refer to Modified Commercial Pattern. That was at the time when they also mentioned DND-pattern trucks (with the C30S/F30S).

As an aside, and example, the Candian Chevrolet Model 1543 was a 'popular' civvy model, being a 2-tonner with 160 inch wheelbase. There were however at least three known MCP variants as the 1941 Model-on CC60L:

CC60Lx1 = DUAL REAR CIVILIAN WHEELS
CC60Lx2 = SINGLE REAR MILITARY WHEELS
CC60Lx3 = DUAL REAR CIVILIAN STYLE WHEELS

I think that these suffixes were meant to relate to the GM of Canada export destination codes that were suffixes to the model numbers, and used from 1935 to 1958 at least:

X EXPORT DESTINATION CODES AFTER SERIAL NUMBERS:
X1 ANY POINT EXCEPT FULLY BUILT UP
X2 UNITED KINGDOM BUILT UP
X3 INDIA CKD
X4 AUSTRALIA CKD
X5 NEW ZEALAND CKD ALTHOUGH ASSEMBLED TRUCKS HAD “XH”
X6 BATAVIA, NETHERLANDS EAST INDIES CKD
X7 UNITED KINGDOM CKD
X8 ANY POINT CKD
X9 SOUTH AFRICA CKD ALTHOUGH ASSEMBLED TRUCKS HAD “XG”

Known other Chevrolet MCP trucks include 1/2 ton 115" wheelbase Model 1311X3 for India (and alsdo some for the LRDG), 1421 1-ton chassis with flat-face cowl 125" wheelbase, 1531 2-ton 134 1/2" wheelbase chassis with cab including 200 1533x2 for the LRDG.

That said I suddenly realised that I have photos and descriptions of Modified Conventional Chassis in my collection, which should be going into a DVD album in the future:

1542x3 3-ton 160" w.b.
1533x2 3-ton 134 1/2" w.b. with 9.00 x 16 wheels
1543x2 3-ton 160" w.b. with dual perfomance axle and 20x6 wheels and single rears
9543 GMC equivalent of 1543 with stake & rack body with 30.2hp 224 cu in GMC engine
AC-704 GMC 178" w.b. firefighting lorry..278 cu in GMC engine 178" wheelbase
1500 series 2-ton ambulance ..probably 1535 2-ton panel delivery 134 1/2" wheelbase
1600 series 2 1/2 ton aircraft gasser...probably 1663 chassis with cab 163 1/4" wheelbase MAPLE LEAF

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

As an aside, and example, the Candian Chevrolet Model 1543 was a 'popular' civvy model, being a 2-tonner with 160 inch wheelbase. There were however at least three known MCP variants as the 1941 Model-on CC60L:

CC60Lx1 = DUAL REAR CIVILIAN WHEELS
CC60Lx2 = SINGLE REAR MILITARY WHEELS
CC60Lx3 = DUAL REAR CIVILIAN STYLE WHEELS

I think that these suffixes were meant to relate to the GM of Canada export destination codes that were suffixes to the model numbers, and used from 1935 to 1958 at least:

X EXPORT DESTINATION CODES AFTER SERIAL NUMBERS:
X1 ANY POINT EXCEPT FULLY BUILT UP
X2 UNITED KINGDOM BUILT UP
X3 INDIA CKD

David,

Good you mention this. It strengthens my idea that the Modified Conventional Pattern class were Canadian-built vehicles primarily built to meet British War Office specifications after the Fall of France had decimated their vehicle inventory.

The line between the first and second category is difficult to draw. Vanderveen lists 388,299 4x2 Commercial and Modified Conventional vehicles were produced in Canada, of which more than half were 3-ton 4x2 Modified Conventional.

H.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

TOTAL CANADIAN MILITARY PATTERN TRUCKS
8 CWT. 4 x 2 9,837
HEAVY UTILITY 4 x 4 12,967
15 CWT. 4 x 2 34,195
15 CWT. 4 x 4 69,227
30 CWT. 4 x 4 19,319
3 TON 4 x 2 6,000
3 TON 4 x 4 209,004
FAT 4 x 4 22,891
3 TON 6 x 4 [FORD] 4,123
3 TON 6 x 6 [CHEV C60X] 2,710
TRAILERS 19,663
TOTAL 409,936

TOTAL MODIFIED CONVENTIONAL PATTERN TRUCKS

15 CWT. 4 x 2 88,096
30 CWT. 4 x 2 21,188
3 TON 4 x 2 197,073
TOTAL 306,357

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

It strengthens my idea that the Modified Conventional Pattern class were Canadian-built vehicles primarily built to meet British War Office specifications after the Fall of France had decimated their vehicle inventory.

I see where you are coming from here and it is well thought-out but the evidence shows that this may not have been the case. The first reference to the British Purchasing Commission placing orders in Oshawa was around 22nd June 1940, so the Ministry of Supply must therefore have been intending to place orders for DND Pattern and Commercial Pattern trucks some weeks earlier and thus before the Fall of France.

S/M 2005 totalled 4,787 Chevrolet 3-ton 1941 Model CC60L 4x2 trucks, split 3,150 for Egypt, 670 for Mombasa and 867 for England with 71 Stores, Wreckers and Machinery split 50 for Egyptt, 10 for Mombasa and 11 for England.

Demand 2004 totalled 5,742 3-Ton Ford 3-ton 4x2 EC098TFS trucks plus 86 of each of Stores, Wreckers and Machinery.

Originally Posted by Ganmain Tony

Do you fellows know more about the Australian "Local Pattern" ??

Anyone know of or have access to Australian army archival inventory lists, specifications etc??

Tony, an interesting query! I don't know the answer myself about Local Pattern but there may be some information in the Ford and GM books by Norm Darwin published by Eddie Ford. I would be interested to know more myself.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

I see where you are coming from here and it is well thought-out but the evidence shows that this may not have been the case. The first reference to the British Purchasing Commission placing orders in Oshawa was around 22nd June 1940, so the Ministry of Supply must therefore have been intending to place orders for DND Pattern and Commercial Pattern trucks some weeks earlier and thus before the Fall of France.

Agree about the date, but what it seems to boil down to is that the Modified Conventional Pattern class were Canadian-built vehicles primarily built to meet British War Office specifications. Other military users, including the Canadian Army back home, could be satisfied with Commercial trucks modified to a lesser degree.

Bear in mind the CMP range of vehicles are what they are because they had to meet British War Office specifications...

H.

[George McKenzie]

I have a 1942 Ford half ton truck . Ford said he didn't make a half ton for civilion use .This truck has no military changes .I talk to a fellow in Texas that sold one like it and he said there was 1300 made . I know of a Cheve , Ford and 3 International Conventional trucks here that were used by the army . They all are low milage trucks about 1.5 to 2 tons with stake bodies. I saw a Ford truck that was used in the army that is a tandem drive .We had a 1940 Studabaker half ton That was used for an ambulace ,hears and taxi as there were very few trucks that had good tires for those years .We were lucky the Government didn't want it . I thankyou for this great bunch of information

[Scott Cacciamani]

Hi, Great tread. Does anyone have figures for Ford half ton pickups (15cwt) sold to the British army in Lybia or in general. I'm partcularly interestred in the 1940 models used by the lrdg. It appears at least the early ones were bought off a lot. I do see ford pickups in Palestine from 1937 on and it looks like the Indian army used a great many. thanks

[Ganmain Tony]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Local Pattern, later: Australian Pattern: referred to as such to distinguish them from overseas military pattern vehicles which were also used. Most Australian Pattern vehicles produced early in the war were militarised commercial types (4x2, 4x4, 6x6). All were adaptations or modifications of commercial-type vehicles, mostly of North American origin and assembled in Australia with locally produced cabs and bodywork. Many were fitted with oversize tyres (incl. 18”), single rear.
This class also included tracked carriers, armoured cars, tanks and trailers.

Do you fellows know more about the Australian "Local Pattern" ??

Anyone know of or have access to Australian army archival inventory lists, specifications etc??

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Ganmain Tony

Do you fellows know more about the Australian "Local Pattern" ??

Anyone know of or have access to Australian army archival inventory lists, specifications etc??

Tony, it seems this was a term more broadly used that MCP, as in: trucks adapted or modified from commercial-type vehicles, mostly of North American origin and assembled in Australia with locally produced cabs and bodywork. Most of the pics Cliff posted are Australian Pattern trucks.
Do you have any of the Vanderveen books?

H.

[Bill Kreiner]

Thank you all for the fantastic data and pictures. I'm going to have to read everything slowly to digest it all!

Hanno, I can see the differences you refer to, between the militarized commercial Canadian Ford and the MCP Ford. As for the American ones, the 28GT is closer to commercial specs, and the G8T is the more militarized one...interesting!

I just remembered I have a book called Standard Military Motor Vehicles, which may have some additional data. I'll need to locate it. I think it was published in 1943, if memory serves.

[Ganmain Tony]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Do you have any of the Vanderveen books?

No I dont Hanno, do they have specific detail in regards to Australian pattern trucks?? For example, what exactly a Holden bodied Chev 30 hundredweight truck was equipped with. How many came out here? How many were used as GS, ambulances... so on & so forth?

[cliff]

Originally Posted by Ganmain Tony

No I dont Hanno, do they have specific detail in regards to Australian pattern trucks?? For example, what exactly a Holden bodied Chev 30 hundredweight truck was equipped with. How many came out here? How many were used as GS, ambulances... so on & so forth?

No they do not have that information Tony. It has basic specs such as motor size, wheelbase etc. but not specific data on what they were equipped with or on how many were made. But they do have some amazing period photos of some of the vehicles. The AWM is probably the most likely to contain the data you want but the Holden records are in a libary in Adelaide I believe and not digitised.

[Ganmain Tony]

Good show Cliff!

Do you know what library in Adelaide Cliff? - I'd be prepared to go to the trouble of making some inquiries and seeing what I can dig up.

Would make interesting reading (to me anyway)........

May be its best to start with the AWM. Do we know anyone over there now who is as enthusiastic as Mike Cecil was.?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Here's are some examples of the classes of trucks described above:

A Conventional truck: a regular Ford truck with stake and platform body. No chrome parts, only matt paint and military markings:
83587.jpg
"Original Toronto Star caption: Traffic snarls were few as city police worked efficiently to clear the way for hundreds of army vehicles. This part of the parade is travelling north on Avenue Rd. from Queen's Park; where dense crowds saw the long procession. Date: 10/4/1940"
Source: https://digitalarchive.tpl.ca/object...efficiently-to


Another variation of a Conventional truck: civilian type Ford chassis/cab, fitted with a military body. No chrome parts, only matt paint and military markings. Having a military body, it could be classified as a Modified Conventional Pattern (MCP) truck, but is does not have the features normally seen on MCPs like WD divided rims, single rear tyres, RHD (for overseas use), military bumper and push bar, black out lighting system, WD towing hook, etc.
83432.jpg
"Original Toronto Star caption: Camp borden experts tune them of; send them Roaring away for duty. One hundred and eighty U.S. tanks of world war vintage were at Camp Borden today for training a Canadian tank brigade; as another 34 arrived on a long line of flat cars. Date: 10/10/1940"
Source: https://digitalarchive.tpl.ca/object...aring-away-for

[Konstantin Chernov]

American Chevrolet 4402 or Canadian Chevrolet 1541? wb - 160" ?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bill Kreiner

That other thread you kindly linked me to contains great photos. I'll need to study them more to learn the differences between the American G8T (is the 2G8T you refer to the same vehicle?) and the Canadian MCP Ford trucks. I'm friends with Ford expert Jim Wagner, but even he is not very familiar with the MCPs of Canada. I'm eager to learn more from you all.

Ford Canada produced both the Commercial and Modified Conventional Pattern.

The big giveaway for the latter are the British specs like RHD and the 16" WD split rims (under widened fenders) as seen in the picture below:


The Commercial Pattern, albeit modified for military use, was used at home in Canada, hence the LHD. Derk's truck shown below shows typical military features like matt paint, military bumper, push bar and towing eyes, but it does not have black-out lighting and it has standard commercial wheels and axles with five stud brake drums:

IMG_7204.jpg
http://www.alfrules.com/derk/IMG_7204.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bill Kreiner

the differences between the American G8T (is the 2G8T you refer to the same vehicle?) and the Canadian MCP Ford trucks.

Bill, when I looked into this five years ago I thought the G8T and 2G8T are the same truck, but from different model years:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

as decribed by Data Book of Wheeled Vehicles: Army Transport 1939-1945, the US-built Ford 3 ton 4x2 with 6-cyl. engine and 158" wb chassis must have had the Ford US model code G8T for 1941 models and 2G8T for 1942 (and onwards) models.

But, looking at the information below, it could be the difference between G8T and 2G8T are not the model years but the differences in specifications:

Now, it will not surprise you the US Ford 1.5-ton truck is more alike the Commercial types built by Ford Canada. The basic military version has five stud wheels, military paint and military cargo body. As I cannot see a petrol tank my guess is this is under the front seat as per the commercial model:

Originally Posted by jeff davis

Maintanance Manual for Ford Truck 1 1/2 ton Model 2G8T
contract # W-398-QM12874
TM 10 1539 May 1st 1942
The manual includes photos of 5 stud wheels

Then there is one which has more military specs: beside the features of the first one, this one has beefier six-stud wheels, petrol tank on the outside of the chassis and black-out lighting.

Originally Posted by Nigel Watson

The other is TM-10-1347 Maintenance Manual for Ford Truck 1 1/2ton 4x2 built for US Government Model G8T Contract No. W-2425-QM-655 and W-374-ORD-2865 dated 15 June 1943 with this picture
http://www.sol.co.uk/n/nwts/images/Trucks/G8T.jpg

Hope this helps (at least to confuse you further. . . )

Hanno

PS: if you click on you will jump to the original posting