WW2 Canadian, Australian and New Zealand Transport

[Keith Webb]

I didn't realise they were lost in such numbers coming to Australia.

I wonder who shouldered the bill for those. I assume the ones we ordered were paid for by the Australian government, but were they C.O.D as it were or once they left the factory?

I imagine those losses were ours rather than Ford Canada.

[Ganmain Tony]

In a distant part of my memory I seem to remember German Surface Raiders contributing significantly to allied merchant vessel tonnage losses as well..

[Mike Cecil]

Hence my comment 'submarine and surface raider' although by the time the Blitz trucks were being transported to Australia in qty, the threat from German surface ships (raiders) had diminished significantly.

An example of loss was the Port Huon (July 1942):sunk with over 2,000 chassis, mostly CMP, aboard, and a deck cargo of 14 aircraft, all destined for Oz.

Payment was Aust government, but how and when depended upon the mode of supply: US Lend Lease, Canadian Mutal Aid, or cash purchases direct from manufacturers. The first two were a post-war balancing of Aust supplied against US/CDN supplied, while cash was, well, cash ie immediate.

Mike C

[alamotex]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

An example of loss was the Port Huon (July 1942):sunk with over 2,000 chassis, mostly CMP, aboard, and a deck cargo of 14 aircraft, all destined for Oz.
Mike C

Mike Where did you aquire such info re shipping losses and their cargos ? I have good reason to believe that most of the 600 odd GL III(c) gunlaying radars manufactured in Canada by Research Enterprises Ltd were shipped across the Atlantic to the UK where many were transhipped to other war zones. I would be most interested to learn how many never reached their intended destination due to shipping losses. I suspect that one of the destinations was Russia via the Murmansk run.

Cheers Brian

[Mike Cecil]

Hi Brian,

The sources are varied: the best place to start is 'Lloyds Shipping Losses of WW2', a 2 volume set detailing all known ship loss and damage for whatever reason. Rare book and expensive if you can find a copy. Jordan's Merchant Ship Fleets 1939 is another good source of info, but tends to repeat the basic data in Lloyds when it comes to losses.

I combine these with data from Australian government sources such as shipping reports, cablegrams, survivor notifications, convoy reports, overseas orders and re-orders (they often give the reason for re-ordering) for munitions and the like. No one source provides a complete picture, but it is not a bad start.

Alas, my concentration on Australia relevant data means I have little on items not going from or to Australia, so nothing on the radar sets you refer to.

Mike C

[alamotex]

Thanks Mike 86 of those GL III(c) radar sets were shipped to OZ sometime in 1943 (or perhaps early 1944) and we know that all arrived safely. A contingent of Canadian technical personnel was sent out to provide training and assistance. This has been well documented and just one or two of those personnel are still alive today...I correspond with one of them.

Cheers Brian

[Mike Cecil]

Yes, Tony, the commercial aspects ... 'business as usual' ... seemed to prevail and the Australian government were very conscious about maintaining exports and a balance of trade.

I'm not sure many people appreciate (as you do) just how much of the merchant fleets used/chartered by the Allies during the war were essentially foreign: much of the military hardware transported to and from Australia went on Dutch, Greek, Danish, Norwegian, and other, 'non-Dominion' shipping. Many were equipped with defensive armament (eg deck guns and paravanes) in Australian ports and in some instances manned by Australian service personnel.

Mike C

[alamotex]

Originally Posted by alamotex

Thanks Mike 86 of those GL III(c) radar sets were shipped to OZ sometime in 1943 (or perhaps early 1944) and we know that all arrived safely. A contingent of Canadian technical personnel was sent out to provide training and assistance. This has been well documented and just one or two of those personnel are still alive today...I correspond with one of them.

Cheers Brian

The following was written by my WW II Canadian Army radar veteran friend reminiscing about an incident that occurred to him and his buddy, shipbound to New Guinea.


>Meanwhile I have been thinking of times past where you and I were
>involved and the sea voyage from San Francisco to New Guinea and
>eventually to Australia came to mind. That was a long voyage from S
>F to Milne Bay, New Guinea; 29 days without stopping or setting foot
>on solid land. Or even seeing land except for a couple of brief
>views of islands which we passed.
>
>You will recall that six of us went on the Norwegian freighter the
>MS Roseville: three warrant officers, you, Blackie and I and three
>officers; Ernie Duvernet, Bruce Brock and Dag Davidge. There were
>quite a few other passengers but we were the only Canadians.
>
>Two or three funny things happened during our voyage and on our way
>from Port Moresby down to Sydney.
>
>The first had to do with the Oerlikon guns which we were assigned to
>man in case of an encounter with Japanese forces. I was paired with
>Bruce Brock and you were on the other side of the ship on another
>gun with Ernie Duvernet.
>There were about eight oerlikons, four on each side of the ship and
>a naval gun fore and aft. We did not expect any excitement but one
>night about halfway across the Pacific the ship's alarm bells
>started to ring and we were rousted out of bed up on deck in the
>pitch black to man our guns. This was getting interesting. The ship
>was zigging and zagging furiously and we fully expected to come
>under fire or be torpedoed at any moment.
>
>Now we had had about five minutes instruction on handling the guns
>and had not even seen one fired. When I arrived at our gun at the
>port side of the ship, Bruce was already there. I said to him "Do
>you remember how to fire this thing?" and he said "No". That was not
>very encouraging!
>
>So we stood by in the dark hoping that a Jap destroyer or sub would
>not appear and feeling pretty useless because if that did happen we
>would not be able to fire our gun.
>
>Finally after quite a long time the all clear sounded and the ship
>steadied up and we went back to bed.
>
>In the morning of course the ship was a-buzz with stories of the
>night before and we began to hear a rumour that the whole thing was
>a false alarm called in by one of the Norwegian gunners on watch who
>had reported that he saw the wake of a torpedo go past our stern.
>
>The theory was that the gunners were not happy with the captain who
>insisted on leaving one mast light on all night despite the ruling
>that all lights had to be doused. The story was that the captain was
>afraid of colliding with another ship during the night because he
>had had that happen previously with the Roseville.
>
>Incidentally just recently I looked up the history of the Roseville
>on the Web and sure enough it had been in a collision with another
>ship a year or so prior to our getting on board. The accident had
>necessitated a lot of repair. It is amazing what you can find on the
>Internet. There was a photo of the Roseville which I sent to you.
>Not a very impressive ship.
>
>It is amazing what time will do to one's memories. One of our
>officers whom I will not name was sure in recent years that a sub
>had surfaced and fired shells at us on that occasion. At one of our
>reunions I assured him that there was no sub and no attack.
>
>Do you remember all that?
>So whether this alarm was a false one or not the story circulating
>sounded somewhat feasible.
>
>The story of this incident got out as four of the passengers were
>old-timer war correspondents and this was grist to their mills. The
>next day a US flying boat appeared circling the ship before flying
>off back to wherever. So obviously radio messages had been sent out
>during the "attack".


This WW II veteran is in his 90's Cheers Brian

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

I didn't realise they were lost in such numbers coming to Australia. I wonder who shouldered the bill for those.

Merchant vessels and their cargoes were insured, just as in peacetime. Premiums varied according to vessel type, shipping route, free running or in convoy, etc. etc. Business is business!

[Mike Cecil]

Tony,

In general terms that's true for unchartered ships carrying mixed cargoes (civilian trade cargo or civilian and military mixed) and for charter ships (ships on govt. charter from private owners), but it also depended upon the nature of the use and which controller -US, CDN, Australian or British - as to the nature and extent of the coverage.

Ships from 'enemy' countries taken as a prize of war were used as if they were wholly owned by the Commonwealth (or British government), for example the Danish ships Anglo-Maersk and Astoria, taken over in 1940 (along with their cargoes), or the Italian Remo, seized at gun-point in the open ocean after fleeing an Australian port. The Danish had to go to court at the end of the war to recover their ships by court order.

The Brits also chartered ships such as the Kanimbla from Australian shipping companies for use as Merchant Cruisers early in the war, and later, these were transferred to Australian Govt. Charter and used as Merchant Cruisers, Landing Ships and transports until well after the end of WW2. These ships were on an outright government payment for loss or damage basis at a pre-determined rate. The government also paid for the refurbishment back to a passenger carrying vessel at the time of the cessation of the charter.

Mike C

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

it also depended upon the nature of the use and which controller -US, CDN, Australian or British - as to the nature and extent of the coverage.

Yes I'm aware there were some rather complex arrangements entered into Mike, notably between the British Govt. and the Norwegian merchant fleet, which under exiled Norwegian requisition formed the worlds largest shipping company. Unlike the Danish fleet it wasn't confiscated by the Brits, but as you mention it was some time after the war before accounts were finally settled and vessels returned to their legal owners in fit state.

I find it quite fascinating how war and commerce coexisted in WW2, and I'm reminded of the story of MV San Demetriou, a British merchant tanker which sailed in convoy from Halifax with a load of aviation fuel, and was attacked by a German cruiser in mid-Atlantic. With the vessel ablaze the crew abandoned ship, but after two freezing nights in a lifeboat they spotted it still afloat, and despite being still ablaze they decided to reboard and attempt to resume passage. Amazingly enough they reached Ireland a week later, with most of the aviation fuel still unconsumed by fire, and having received no assistance from another vessel, and the captain having been picked up in the other lifeboat, they were legally entitled to salvage money of several thousand pounds, which they were duly awarded in court!

It was the subject of a movie at the time, titled "San Demetriou, London", which I highly recommend to anyone who hasn't seen it before. It crops every now and then on late night TV so you may need to record it like I did!