Australian International K5

[Matt Austin]

Fascinating, thanks Tony. Those pics are proof that good stuff is still out there. I'd certainly be interested in seeing if any spares might be available, locally or further afield. Among other things, a seat would be very handy!

I had a breakthrough, when talking with Keith Webb and Mike Cecil, and I thank these gentlemen for going out of their way to help me. These are fascinating vehicles, and I was very happy to learn that many of the military records had survived. Rather a mundane topic, and knowing the bureaucratic mindset (a little too well!), I was impressed that they'd been considered worthy of retention, when the postwar disposals were complete.

Mike asked for various details, and he was able to find that the Army registration number was 43362. So now I know what to paint on the bonnet and tailgate. Before I do, I'm going to continue some non-invasive examination to see if any of the original numbers remain. Given that the truck is still in its military paint, I wonder if the original numbers have faded beyond recognition?

The fact that a few trucks of this type are turning up in not far from me, I wonder whether they were surplussed locally? These vehicles were ordered by the AMF not the AIF, so they didn't go overseas. I'm wondering if they were used at the recruit training base at Kapooka, which was quite busy during the war years, obviously enough? It'd make sense that there would've been a good number of trucks set up for troop transport.

Turns out that this vehicle was sold back to IHC, probably at the end of the war. I wonder if IHC bought a batch from Kapooka, and sold them locally? I'm looking through Trove to see if I can find any postwar advertisements for surplus material being sold from Wagga.

It's a fascinating study, and I hope to do it justice.

Cheers,
Matt

[motto]

I have to admit that the fellow who rebuilt the truck in Stuarts pictures did a fabulous job of restoration, especially when you look at the photo of what he started with.
What I find hard to understand is why you would go to all that trouble and then completely undo the authenticity of the project with a high gloss finish and lacquered timber tray.
I once took my somewhat used looking 42 WLA Harley to the Hanging Rock Vehicle Show which usually attracts 2,500 plus vehicles and parked it among all the gleaming, polished and presented later models.
Guess which motorcycle attracted more attention than most of the rest put together.
There is a mystique about something that's obviously 'been around a bit' that is worth preserving. You definitely have the right approach Matt in trying to preserve the originality of the truck that has come into your care. More power to you.
My 2 cents worth.

David

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Matt Austin

I'd certainly be interested in seeing if any spares might be available, locally or further afield.

This K-Series was one of a pair which sold on ebay last year for about $150 each, in a town about 70 km from me. I bought a blitz wreck from the same guy and he told me the Inter buyer was a collector, so he may be good for parts. Next time I'm down that way I'll drop in ask the seller if he still has contact details. I'd give him a ring but I no longer have his phone number.

[Matt Austin]

G'day Folks,

Motto, thanks for the kind words. I'm enjoying having a go. People here have been very kind and helpful. Looks like a good community here at MLU.

Tony, thanks for thinking of me. If that was possible sometime, I'd greatly appreciate it. Meanwhile, the fun continues!

Cheers,
Matt

[Matt Austin]

G'day folks,

I've been pottering away on the K5, getting advice on how to go about it. I'll be moving it to covered accommodation in about three weeks, so that should help things.

I'm just wondering whether Aussie vehicles that were intended to remain in Australia had the bridge classification disc? I'd imagine so, but would appreciate advice. If so, would it be an 8? Or maybe a 9?

I'm thinking of making up a 2nd Army tac plate with the horse over the boomerang; would this be appropriate for a CMF vehicle?

Cheers,
Matt

[Matt Austin]

They say it can be dangerous to give someone some free time and a stick of chalk!

Mike Cecil kindly found my vehicle's ARN from the chassis number, so I know that 43362 is indeed correct for this truck. But paint is for another day.

The fun continues. I know that 18" tyres are like rocking horse poop, but I'm keeping my eyes open. As can be seen, someone put doubles on the rear, so I reckon I'll have to change back at some point for authenticity. Unless I can find a civillian option that allows for more common wheels and tyres.

The fun continues!

Cheers,
Matt

[cliff]

A lot of these Internationals were supplied new with dual wheels on the rear. The photo below shows new K5 models in 1941. Where this pic was taken I do not know nor do I know the original originator of it either

[cliff]

here is another interesting one. A Tractor unit with canvas top and duals. Photo I believe was taken in the Northern Territories on the North/South (Stuart) Highway. Originator unknown

[Matt Austin]

Thanks very much, Cliff, nice pics there.

I'd forgotten about the factory pic. There are pics from the IHC collection in the Museum of Victoria collection, of which that pic is one. I'd forgotten about the duals, so it seems that one less thing for me to worry about.

Your pic of the tractor unit is interesting, and it'd appear to have the same type of roof as mine. I understand that mine was one of many so rebuilt after being damaged. As the Inters weren't used by the AIF, I'm imagining a rollover or something equally mundane!

Cheers,
Matt

[cliff]

Matt the canvas roof type were built like that from new not when damaged. a lot of Fords had the same type body as well. Another unique Aussie built truck

Post war many of these open cabs were closed in by civilian buyers who wanted a bit more comfort from the cold

The South Australia State Library photo below shows another canvas topped Inter in the Northern Territory with an RAAF unit

[Matt Austin]

Thanks Cliff, great pic.

I haven't been able to find images of K-series Inters with the split rims like mine. I'm wondering if I could do a swap for some spider hubs for the time being, to get around the 10.50-18 shortage?

Anyone have experience in changing wheel types?

Cheers,
Matt

[cliff]

here's one with split rims. AWM photo

[Matt Austin]

Thanks Cliff,

I haven't been able to find those pics on the AWM site, I must be using the wrong search terms.

A bit of luck today, I visited a fellow not far from here, and have picked up this KS5R. The engine turns over, and the front axle is still around. It's a spares unit for now!

Cheers,
Matt

[cliff]

nice spares truck Matt. Most of the AWM Inter photos I have came from searches of 'Northern Territory', 'Darwin', 'North/South Military Highway' and 'Trucks'. 'Transport' is another along with the true names of some of the Transport Companies especially those hauling between Alice Springs and Darwin. Hope this helps

[Matt Austin]

Excellent, thanks Cliff. Looks like I have a busy evening ahead!

Cheers,
Matt

[Ryan]

https://m.facebook.com/groups/245704...ce=48&refid=18
There's a girl on Facebook selling a k5 for her dad. Hope the link works.

[Keith Webb]

What looks like a Morris Tilly. https://m.facebook.com/groups/245704...90207797776582

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

What looks like a Morris Tilly. https://m.facebook.com/groups/245704...90207797776582

Hi Keith,
This is not a Morris "Tilly" but a Morris Series Y commercial, usually a van or light truck. There were some military ambulance versions with canvas covered bodies. Lang Kidby found a Series Y and had plans to drive it across Europe at one time.

[Keith Webb]

Originally Posted by Richard Farrant

Hi Keith,
This is not a Morris "Tilly" but a Morris Series Y commercial, usually a van or light truck. There were some military ambulance versions with canvas covered bodies. Lang Kidby found a Series Y and had plans to drive it across Europe at one time.

Thanks for the expert info Richard... I knew if I posted it someone would know - probably you!

[Matt Austin]

I've been pretty quiet here, but have reactivated my restoration thread here;

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...947#post206947

I'm not sure what the protocol is; should I keep any restoration work over there? I figure that this one could be a general discussion about the wartime Inters, while the resto thread could just be specific to my truck?

After my first visit to Corowa, I'm keen to have mine ready for 2016. Doesn't seem to be much interest in the wartime Inters, but I hope to add my bit to help change that. I have my wife on board, so that's a big bonus!

I thought I'd also ask these questions here, as they relate to these vehicles generally, and are not just restoration-specific. A couple of questions, or an invitation for suggestions.

1) The front tyres. Obviously, the 18x10.50 tyres are like hens' teeth. I understand that both Gamma Goat and DUKW tyres are close enough to work. Are these tyres available in Australia? And if so, do bar-tread tyres present a particular challenge for use with such a vehicle?

2) 20" wheels. One suggestion was to modify Blitz rims to suit. This would be a bit of work, as the stud number and radius is different. Would such a plan be feasible?

3) Replacement with spider hubs. My spare truck has commercial spider hubs, and I wonder what would be involved with a straight swap? I'd like to keep the current wheels if at all possible, but there's a precedent for the use of spider hubs. Mind you, do they have another hard-to-find tyre spec?

4) The General Service body. Is this body similar to the other types, such as the Dodge and Chev varieties? The metal brackets and structure could possibly be a match, and I have nothing above the floor, apart from the vertical section against the cab.

So, it continues. Please excuse my enthusiasm! As I say, I'm open to suggestions, thoughts, and corrections. I'd like to see at least one WW2-dated International at Corowa next year.


Cheers,
Matt

[Ron King]

My father many years ago in Nowra restored a K5 and was lucky enough to find many more wreaks for missing parts at local saw mills.
The K5 should have 20 inch split wheels front and rear.
The 20 inch wheels are called suicide wheels and no one much in the tyre game will know anything about them or touch them.
They are different to the split rims and two piece wheels still in use to day.
The 18 inch wheels and hubs are military but not K5.
18 inch tyres were standard on american and Australian trailers during the war.
The tyres are no longer advailible in Aust except for a very low speed rated tractor tyre of in correct tread pattern.
The cabin tops and rears will very between WW2 K series.
They were imported during the earlier part of the war when we were desperate for trucks as partly knocked down and supplied as bonnet to windscreen and doors only.
The roof and rear part of the cabin is all local stuff done in a hurry and cheaply.
The cabin rear is usually wooden frame with sheet metal nailed and bent over the top.
Some had canvass roofs and some had sheet metal.
Local rear cargo bodies usually fitted which could be all timber or metal runners with timber planks on top.
Some ......but not many had a two speed rear diff fitted and worked by a a simple push\pull rod link from the floor of the cabin.
They were assembled in Melbourne and I think it was Licombe in Sydney.

[Ron King]

The K series were sold off much earlier than the trucks used later in the war and the fact they were 2x4 with a civie friendly type body fitted ment they were snapped up by a truck starved post war Australia.
They were worked hard post war and by the 1960s most were worn out and disappeared.
They were much more useful carting goods around a big city than something like a Bliz.
Off road for a 4x2 truck they are good with the duals on the rear and a good low first gear.
Nice to drive and if I remember correctly they Max out at just over 50 mph.
The green diamond engine is OK but never earnt the name of other truck motors of the time and didn't seem to last as long as a Hercules GMC or Dodge or ford 8 etc
K4 and K6 were also used with the K5 seems to be the most numerous surviving to day.
Ron.

[Ron King]

If you go to the correct spider front hubs and 20 inch wheels new tyres are still advailible in 7.50 x 20 and 8.25 x20.
The 8.25 x 20 is a grader tyre advailible in a semi lug design well suited to a K5.
You will find the tyre crowds will not fit the tyres and you have to do it your self............just be very careful as it takes a while for most people to get their heads around the way the split wheel on the K5 works and you must wrap a long chain around the wheel loosely all the way around and hook it back on its self when inflating in case the old rims do not sit in the wheel correctly during inflation.
Take note the locking rim is not perfectly to round ????? and is flexed off the wheel by a bar at the cut away in the locking rim provided.
The out of round shape holds it in place and the split in the wheel on a deflated tyre also moves together to give room to remove the rims.

[Matt Austin]

Thank you very much, Ron, that info is gold!

I was aware that the 18x10.50 was a trailer type, having seen it on a field kitchen trailer (I think) once before. I thought at least one variety of smallish Chev truck or ute also used them? I'll take your suggestions, and appreciate your having taken the time to reply.

You've described my truck perfectly, as shown in the attached pic;

"The roof and rear part of the cabin is all local stuff done in a hurry and cheaply. The cabin rear is usually wooden frame with sheet metal nailed and bent over the top. Some had canvass roofs and some had sheet metal."

I wonder if I'll be able to register it with new wood, rebuilt as it was originally done? Lots to think about.

I also attached a pic to show what a wash does, to remove sixty-something years of grime. There's no evidence of the ARN, but the paint is mostly good.

Cheers,
Matt

[Matt Austin]

Cliff, thanks for your observation about GS bodies. That leads me to some other thoughts.

I wonder if the GMH Special Body Division at Fisherman's Bend, was where bodies were built for many types of vehicle. It'd seem to make sense if this was the case. I've attached a pic of a brass plate, removed from my vehicle, which shows this lineage. It's painted grey, but I imagine it was green back in the day.

The second image is from the AWM site, and clearly marked as such. It apparently shows International trucks approaching completion. The four planks and steel uprights are visible. These match the two remaining steel uprights and four planks on my truck, as shown in the third pic. So now I know the layout to replicate.

I'm looking at pics of Chev and Dodge GS trucks, which do seem to have very similar bodies, so there may be bits out there. Looks like the metal may be just mild steel channel, bent to shape.

Cheers,
Matt

[Ron King]

This pic shows assembly of K4 ??? Inters........note canvass roof and locally made doors.
I guess if at that time of the war the doors were not supplied with the imported knocked down truck we made them or did a cut away door less cabin.
( I guess it was done that way to save time of manufacture at the parent plant and tooling and metal press wear and the fact we often fitted locally produced bodies to imported grills and bonnets etc before the war at most large car dealer ships in Australia.)
Some inters appeared to be imported with full cabins and doors too.
We worked with what we got in the time frame advailible.( the japs were coming )
I believe the pic was taken in Sydney.

[Ron King]

Also note the International brand name was fitted to the bonnet on either side.

[Matt Austin]

Thanks Ron, that photo gives great detail. The vehicles pictured are quite like mine, in roof profile, door shape, and general layout. It appears that mine has a different contour to the bottom edge of the wheel arches, and a rolled edge.

This pic is also interesting, given the wheels. I wonder what size they are?

I'm also fortunate in that all of my badges are still in place.

I visited the truck this afternoon, and took a few more detail shots of the remaining metal fittings, to get a better idea of what I'm working with. Loops down the side seem to suggest that it had drop sides, while the fittings on the forward bulkhead are largely intact.

The first pic shows one of the remaining uprights. It appears to be fabricated from channel, chopped and welded at the bottom. Those square nuts are interesting!

The second shot gives front wheel detail. Are these wheels like anything else out there?

The third shot has another quandry. The four rubber blocks between the glovebox and the instrument cluster, around the ignition lock mechanism, have me puzzled. Two are gone, but I can't see what they might've been used for. Someone mentioned rifle brackets, but I can't work out how that'd work. If these trucks did indeed have somewhere to rest a rifle, then I'm in luck, as I've collected Lee-Enfields for years!

Thanks again, and cheers!
Matt

[Matt Austin]

Another win tonight. I'd never been able to open the passenger door, so I hadn't had reason to look at the floor between the seat frame and the door. Just happened to look, and saw the data plate.

I'm guessing that 233 refers to the 233 Green Diamond engine, as against the 214 Green Diamond. 159 is the wheelbase in inches. Pity there's no date.

Last year, I found the same chassis number on the chassis rail, and passed it on to Mike Cecil, who very kindly looked it up for me. Thank you, Mike.

Mike noted the following;
IHC Model K5, 159 inch wheelbase, 10:50x18 tyres; chassis number 25146; original engine number GRD233-34411, GS Lorry, Army registration number 43362. Sold to IHC per SAN959 (undated, so most probably end of war).

Fascinating. I have my work cut out for me!

Cheers,
Matt

[Matt Austin]

Not long ago, I spoke with the family who passed the truck on to me. I filled them in on what I'd learned, what little I've done since receiving the truck, and plans for its restoration, particularly in light of visiting Corowa. I was invited to come and have a chat about it all. Turns out that the family are delighted that something is being done with the truck. They had an idea that they'd like to have restored it, but time was an issue. So they're delighted that I'm restoring it, even if it is to the condition that it was in before it was bought by the family.

When I was there, I was given a copy of the book pictured. The memoirs of Arch Hillyer are a fascinating read. Born in the UK in 1917, he came to Australia during the Depression. He served throughout WW2, enlisting in the RAAF weeks after the outbreak of war. An airframe fitter, he ended up in the islands with No 5 Squadron, on Boomerangs. After the war, he moved to Junee, 'learning how to be a farmer'. He passed away in 2008.

The following extract from around 1946 is of particular relevance;

"One morning, a contract shearer arrived at the shed, driving a 1942 International truck, one that he had purchased at a recent Army surplus disposal sale. There were lots of these going on around the country. Some people got real bargains. At a sale in Alice Springs, a man bought a covered-in truck cheaply and when he later pulled back the covers, it was full of new motorbikes... Well, back to the Inter truck. My boss liked the look of it, and by nightfall he was the owner. He gave ₤200 and his old truck for it.

New cars and trucks, even tractors, were unattainable after the war, and it was some years before these became available to the general public, so we were elated that we had a larger and newer vehicle. The International was fitted with large balloon-type tyres used mainly to travel over sand. I remember taking it to Illabo railway siding with a three-tier load of wool, and it seemed very unstable. I thought that at every corner, it was going to tip over on its side. Also, the tray was much higher than usual. With harvest coming up...we had to make some adjustments. We removed the big tyres and replaced them with duals on the rear wheels, and this lowered the tray. With a new mechanical kicker fitted, the truck was ready for the harvest, but the gears were not quite right, and it didn't like hills nd it was painful to drive to Junee silos, which I did often."

There are other stories of the truck, and a couple of photos, including the attached pic of Arch and his mother Alice, with the Inter as a backdrop. It's really very interesting, as it gives a human element to what is otherwise just a machine. I've spoken with the family, and they're happy for me to restore it to its military state, but they're delighted that I've asked if I could make a display board, telling the story of Arch and his truck.

It fascinates me, that's for sure.

Cheers,
Matt