C8A HUW: body dimensional data needed

[Jerry Hill]

Sadly I had a shunt on a convoy last weekend. I now have an unexpected winter project! I'd appreciate body dimensional data for the front end as I'll be involved in body pulling work.

I ran into the back of a GMC Jimmy and stoved in the front end, wrapping the rad against the engine, thus pushing the front panel badly out of shape. the front doors have impacted the 'B' post, which needs limited pulling.

What I'm in need of is the correct dimensions of the windscreen (A post) pillar angles and dimensions to ensure we get them absolutely right.

Jerry

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Jerry

Just so we/us HUP owners can start feeding you measurements, can you give us a photo of the damaged area with any particular measurements you need marked. Also if you can give us any bench marks like hinge points, particular bolt holes then we can start posting measure for you.

I'll measure the window post angle in the morning, my angle level is good too about 1 degree.

Cheers Phil

[Jerry Hill]

Hi Phil

Thank you for your really helpful reply.

I've taken several photos which should help. I've just got to figure out how to load them onto the forum.

The angles I'm after are: the A post (windscreen pillar) back edge to the underside of the roof gutter. And the angle of the forward edge of the A post (windscreen pillar) to the vertical section below (to which the front Bonnet/wing assy attaches).

Any help much appreciated.

Best

Jerry

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Jerry

Ouch.

Will start measuring tomorrow, I've printed out your photos and will try and plug in some of the angles and measurements that might help to get started.

From the photo bellow it looks like it pushed the grill in a good eight inches. Did it shift the body back on the frame as well? Do you have the frame measurements to check that it is square?



Obviously this crunched the radiator and fan does it look like it moved the engine back?

Now what year is your truck and does it have middle doors on both sides?

Are the front doors still operable or do you need opening measurements?

If someone else could confirm the measurements from another HUP or HUW as a double check of my measurements that would probably help.

Cheers Phil

[Jerry Hill]

Phil

I haven't checked the body mounts, but will after we complete work planned for the coming weekend.

I've opened the bonnet (hood) and the rad is wrapped around the fan blades/water pump. The top tank looks good. I'll see the lower tank situation at the w/e alongwith the bottom pulley situation. At this stage the engine does not appear to have shifted.

It's '43 HUW and has two central doors (pre-dating the spare wheel variant). The B posts have both been slightly pushed by the doors distorting at the striker plate. We can pull both b posts out without too much difficulty.

The front door inner panels have both de-formed. We will remove the outer skin (which is OK) and correct the inner panel deformation and refit. The critical alignment therefore will be those angles you're looking into around the A posts.

This w/e we'll remove the front panel assy and probably remove the radiator. We can then look at the remaining issues of body mounts, engine movement etc.

Of the nudge bar mounting bolts (which were modern metric) all but one sheared, resulting in the bumper drooping to one side and deforming the chassis rail as it twisted downwards.

I'll send you some pics once we've got the front panel off. The front panel will be rebuilt with new sheet metal and re-aligned angle iron framework. Mercifully one of our group is a retired blacksmith/welder of great skill & experience and can work miracles. The radiator will be replaced/rebuilt.

So as you can see I have a project for next winter!

Jerry

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

You must feel awful!! I'm so glad you are going about fixing the old gal. I have one in the garage and can help out if you still need it.

[maple_leaf_eh]

What damage do you do to the other vehicle? When I was a kid, the neighbours had an Edsel (a BIG 4-door V8 Detroit car from about 1962, with a characteristic horse collar grill). There was a collision between his car and a 1970's Japanese import. Which one lost? The smaller one with less substantial bodywork.

[Jerry Hill]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

You must feel awful!! I'm so glad you are going about fixing the old gal. I have one in the garage and can help out if you still need it.

I do feel awful Bruce. But it's got to be a case of onwards and upwards and repair her to the condition she was before my misdemeanour. Jerry

[Jerry Hill]

Phil

We got the front end dismantled today. Pics attached for your review. The rad bottom tank is very poorly. The genny has been pushed back and is fixable. The fan can be recovered. The water pump bearings feel alright. Ran up the engine minus belt, there is minor foul I'm assuming in the timing case,s o we'll pull off the front pulley and have a look. The engine has not moved. Haven't checked the body mounts as rain stopped play. All the removed components are in my car and trailer ready for a start on Monday. We'll take the rad off for reworking. Have a look at the pics.

Jerry

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Jerry

I started making Angle Measurements couple of samples below. They are not as readable as the should be so I'll work on the lighting so that not getting reflection off the scale. Also need to be sure picture is square to the needle.

Measured both my HUP and Pat 13 C60S and it looks like the angle of the windscreen is the same on both.

One thing I noted on the first pass through measuring and figuring out how to make measurements relative to true level. My shop floor is nearly dead level, but the HUP has a slight nose down angle.

The took some preliminary measurements on the front door openings on my HUP not surprisingly they are not identical +/- 1/8 inch.

Window Post Driver Side


Door Post at Latch on C60S -


Floor of HUP at Drivers Seat


Top of Window Post Roof Line


Measuring across door opening


I think to make these really useable once the reflection problem is solved I'll post them on my web site with both small image and full resolution click it.


Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Driver side front door opening


Left side front door opening


Left side passenger door opening


Driver side front door post under dash


Cheers Phil

[Jerry Hill]

Phil

Thanks for all your helpful gen. The second posting is perfect, but I can't make out the details on the first, if possible can you resend the readings typed out - please.

Jerry

[Jerry Hill]

The dent in the timing case fouling the timing gear has been sorted along with the genny blades and miss-alignment. We just need to straighten out the fan blades and fit to complete the engine repairs. To remove the timing case it was necessary to drop the sump to get at the two bottom keep bolts, which fit thro' the front main bearing caps.

Jerry

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Jerry

If the timing gear has actually been touched by the cover, replacing the timing gear would be a wise investment. With the fibber timing gears it is very easy to break or crack a tooth. I've done it just bumping it while pushing the crankshaft gear on. If it is just a dent in the timing cover with no internal contact you should be OK. But you are wise to plan on pulling the cover.

Will reshoot the photos and also give a chart of angles.

Cheers Phil

[Jerry Hill]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi Jerry

If the timing gear has actually been touched by the cover, replacing the timing gear would be a wise investment. With the fibber timing gears it is very easy to break or crack a tooth. I've done it just bumping it while pushing the crankshaft gear on. If it is just a dent in the timing cover with no internal contact you should be OK. But you are wise to plan on pulling the cover.

Will reshoot the photos and also give a chart of angles.

Cheers Phil

Thanks for the info Phil

I didn't study the cam gear, but it is black and stamped GM and looked like grey iron. Could I have been mistaken and was it fibre? The crankshaft gear is steel. If it is fibre, I think I should replace it as it made a light rubbing noise when I ran up the engine for 1 or 2 mins to test. Can you advise on a source. Rex Ward is v. good 'round these parts but his parts are focused on GMC & DUKW .

Much appreciate the upcoming chart of angles and your advise.

Jerry

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Jerry

Here is what the original cam gear look like after 66 years of use in my HUP, looks like black metal but was actually fiber



Here is the brand new fiber cam gear during engine reassembly "oops", I'll look in the file and see where I got the replacement I know it was easy to get.





Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Jerry

Here is where I got my cam timing gear through my local NAPA auto parts, know you probably can't order direct but the information might help. But just for the heck of it click on the ship it to me button and see if they will. Note the cost $34.65 list cost is $71.52.


Click on Buyer guide in the following

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...500_0077661525

For application list

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Bu...rtNumber=82500

There search engine (http://www.napaonline.com/) is not as good as it was on older parts. It is very literal in this case it would not find cam gear at first but then did find it under camshaft timing gear.

Cheers Phil

[Jerry Hill]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi Jerry

Here is where I got my cam timing gear through my local NAPA auto parts, know you probably can't order direct but the information might help. But just for the heck of it click on the ship it to me button and see if they will. Note the cost $34.65 list cost is $71.52.


Click on Buyer guide in the following

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...500_0077661525

For application list

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Bu...rtNumber=82500

There search engine (http://www.napaonline.com/) is not as good as it was on older parts. It is very literal in this case it would not find cam gear at first but then did find it under camshaft timing gear.

Cheers Phil

Phil

Thanks for the gear dimensions/data. Can you believe I have sat in front of me a new old stock fibre timing wheel, the same piece is used on the GMC 'Jimmy' & a chum has let me have it. I will fit it tomorrow.

Today we split the front panel into three pieces, drilling out numerous spot welds and several seam welds. We're going to replace the distorted flat pieces with new. Sadly on the passengers side most of the welds are later seam welds, which we'll angle grind off on Wednesday. The central part (rad panel) needs some careful thought before we cut sections to enable us to selectively straighten it out &/or replace as necessary. I'll take some pics on Wednesday to illustrate.

I'm waiting for some items before we can set about pulling out the B posts. We also need to split the door skin & frame to enable them to be seen to.

The major worry is the rad, I really need a replacement that's straight with good top & bottom tanks, which we can get re-cored, if necessary.

Jerry

[Jerry Hill]

Well, we've fitted the new fibre timing wheel - just in case the original was damaged, so the engine is complete and runs well bar fitment of the cooling fan.

Today we used the twenty ton press to good effect and straightened out the front cross member, a remarkable achievement considering it suffered complex buckling. It is currently drying after a coat of phosphate primer.

The front panel has seen both the driver's & passengers sides damaged panels removed and straightened. The front panel framework has returned someway to its original shape naturally and will get more treatment shortly.

A friend has unearthed a derelict C15 which may or may not donate a radiator and a cooling fan plus more perhaps. I'm going to have a look at the donor on Friday. Either way the radiator matrix will need renewal.

This coming weekend will see work start on separating the door inner & outer skins.

Jerry

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Jerry

Re-shot many of the photos and have posted them to a new page on my web page http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/H...lsofAngles.htm click on any of the photo and you should go to the original photo resolution.

From your last post you are making very good progress, at a fast pace.

Let me know what other info I can help with.

Cheers Phil

Added Info- Remember to take into account that floor of shop is dead level, but my HUP has a 1-2 degree nose down angle.

[Mike K]

I thought that most restorers install the metal timing gear , the metal version is less prone to stripping its teeth Mike

[Jerry Hill]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi Jerry

Re-shot many of the photos and have posted them to a new page on my web page http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/H...lsofAngles.htm click on any of the photo and you should go to the original photo resolution.

From your last post you are making very good progress, at a fast pace.

Let me know what other info I can help with.

Cheers Phil

Added Info- Remember to take into account that floor of shop is dead level, but my HUP has a 1-2 degree nose down angle.

Phil

That's much better, thank you so much, that's a huge help.

I've just received some pics of the derelict C15 in a quarry near Norwich, hopefully we'll start the ball rolling to get the radiator out and down for a new matrix.

Best

Jerry

[Jerry Hill]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

I thought that most restorers install the metal timing gear , the metal version is less prone to stripping its teeth Mike

Hi Mike

You're right, but I felt the original gear had worked well for 70 years, so the fibre wheel can't be all bad.

The original gear showed no signs of damage, but after being knocked in the accident the risk of timing gear failure would be higher & the result catastrophic, so I wasn't going to take chances. Thanks to Phil for the advise.

Best

Jerry

[Jerry Hill]

Our trip to the quarry early on Friday bore fruit. A nice straight fan and grill, plus a straight if grubby radiator. The photos show both sides of the banana shaped original and replacement. We'll use the original carrying frame which straightened out nicely.

I've trial fitted the bumper after straightening the passenger side frame damage. I took the opportunity to weld up a crack from a mounting hole. Both the bumper and nudge bar have an appointment with the 30 something ton Press. The nudge bar damage is easily seen. The bumper needs a tweak on both sides to correct action from the distant past.

The radiator carrier straightened out nicely and the front cross member aligns nicely, both are fitted. They will get bolted back properly after we've got the bumper and radiator back. The new fan has had a needle gunning and a coat of paint and scrubbed up nicely.

This week it'll be off to the radiator mender for a refurbish and a re-core, this will be costly. More corrective work on the front panel and split the doors to decide how we'll straighten them. Then it's re-align the A & B posts.

I'm trying to get as much done as possible before the weather gets grim and working outside becomes miserable. So far so good.

Jerry

[Jerry Hill]

A weekend away saw little progress, but the rebuilt radiator is due in one weeks time. When we get it back & fitted we'll be able to move the vehicle about freely and make a start on pulling out the B & A posts respectively.

In the meantime the bumper and associated bits have been straightened on the trusty 60 ton press and refitted to complete that part of the project.

We've decided to repair the trickiest centre (bonnet) part of the front panel. Today we cut off the top section and straightened it out with the trusty press & welded up a split, the trial fit with the bonnet lid is a pass and is put aside for later. We removed the bottom carrier and straightened that also, leaving us with the tricky centre section, which we will cut down into three pieces and do our best to get them back into the right shape, before welding back into a sub assy. We may have to resort to replacing the uprights with new pressings as they are a bit of a mess.

Anyway onward and upwards....

Jerry

[Jerry Hill]

Yesterday I successfully pulled out the B post on the passenger's side, drilling at the point of contact right through the B post. On the rear door side the hole had to be opened up to 2.5 cm to get a nut and socket on the ring bolt and tighten it up. A cargo pull was attached to the A post bulkhead and the ring bolt then steadily pulled until all was lined up as it should be. The rear door shut is perfect. I'll have a go at the driver's side before the w/e, when I'll post some pics.

Pics today show the bonnet and frame completed ready for re-assembly, the passenger wing section with a replacement piece of zintec 2mm sheet ready for fitting. Likewise on the driver's side, which also has the headlight panel straightened out along with the straightened framework tacked ready for the next stage. The next pic shows the centre section of the front panel with the two verticals cut out. After some head scratching we decided the originals are too badly mangled to recover, so we pressed replacement 2mm zintec sheets to the same profile and over the coming weeks we will rework them to match the originals. The same can be said for the bottom section shown on the final pic, we cut off and straightened out the carrier that attaches the front panel to the chassis front cross member.

When we have remade these parts we'll drive the truck sans front panel about five drafty miles to the workshop for the first trial fitting/alignment checks of the various components that make up the front panel and make sure they align to the bulkhead before tacking them and welding up to complete the front panel.

Then there's the doors to be seen to and paint. Some way to go yet.

Jerry

[Jerry Hill]

Today saw the driver's side B post pulled out. Some pics, the first after drilling the post, involved grinding the ring bolt to fit. The nut and socket were attached from the rear side of the post - pic2. A steady but substantial pull got things back to the shape it should be Pic 3. The rear of the B post was plugged with a grommet Pic 4. The finished job ready to weld the two skins together Pic 5.
The rear door shuts as it should, which is all a great relief.
On Monday we collect the radiator and an enormous bill for rebuilding it.
Jerry

[Ken Hughes]

From a panel beaters point of view that damage was quite nasty,looks like your doing everything right,a lot of people would have looked around for another nose cone,well done!.

[Jerry Hill]

Originally Posted by Ken Hughes

From a panel beaters point of view that damage was quite nasty,looks like your doing everything right,a lot of people would have looked around for another nose cone,well done!.

Ken - Thanks for that, most re-assuring. I'm being coached by a good old Suffolk 'boy' who knows his stuff. Jerry.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Jerry

Well in this day of specialized automotive repair services it is good to see your CMP Collision Repair Center, you surely are doing a fine job and your post are giving the rest of us a tutorial on what can be done. Your rate of progress and what you have accomplished is out standing.

Think we'll have to nominate you to be our CMP Collision Repair Expert.

Keep up the good work.

Cheers Phil