Chev 216 loose piston pin - which one ?

[Mike K]

Hi

I have been working on my cab 11 C8 , a refurbishment and a general cleanup with the club rego in mind for later in the year .

Anyway the first job is to fix the annoying rattle of a loose piston pin . At this point I don't know which piston is making the noise , the noise has always been there since I got the C8 running . The knock is only evident after revving the engine and then listening as it idles , the noise is not there when above idle speeds .

I am doing this on my own, I know that I can remove a spark plug lead and listen for a change in the knock - but with only one pair of hands . Is there an easier method ?

I have removed the engine covers, a major job in itself

Another query. Does anyone know the dimensions of the valve guides for a 1940 216 engine ? The valve stem diameter and the length of the guides ? I think the 1941 engines are slightly different Thanks

[Keith Webb]

Don't have an answer for you Mike but great to hear we'll be seeing the C8 on the road again!

[hrpearce]

Mike, with the engine covers off do you have enough access to use a long screw driver to listen to the side of each cylinder. That is what Dad used to do on Bedford engines.

[Lynn Eades]

Hi Mike, you should be able to short it out at idle (it will only be audible at idle) (just use a screwdriver from plug lead to head)
If it is a timing gear noise, it won't short out.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Mike

Here is a video of hunting down a noise inside the engine as suggested. I had a similar engine noise while the engine was still on the test stand. In my case it was not piston pin but only a miss-adjusted lower connecting rod. Remeasured and reshimmed noise when away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAjy8LjiexQ

Cheers Phil

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi Mike

Here is a video of hunting down a noise inside the engine as suggested. I had a similar engine noise while the engine was still on the test stand. In my case it was not piston pin but only a miss-adjusted lower connecting rod. Remeasured and reshimmed noise when away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAjy8LjiexQ

Cheers Phil

Ok nice videos , I took the time to look through them all at here the library. The slow wipers on the HUP are mesmurising .... they would put me to sleep as I was driving along . My C8 has the same sleepy wipers .. has anyone fitted a vacuum tank yet ?

I will ask my neighbour down the road to help me out with the diagnosing of the piston pin noise in the C8 engine .

The valve guides have a .342 " bore and a OD of 9/16" . There are cheap modern generic guides available with a .342" bore but they have a OD of 1/2" EGGE parts in USA have the correct guides for 2.60 $ US each but the postage is a killer .

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by hrpearce

Mike, with the engine covers off do you have enough access to use a long screw driver to listen to the side of each cylinder. That is what Dad used to do on Bedford engines.

Robert you need to be a skilled circus acrobatic act in order to work on the engine in the cab 11 ...... or 12 . The mechano set bolt down engine covers in the cab 11 are a nightmare to remove

[Mike K]

Been fiddling and the fuel pump decided not to work, as I removed the fuel bowl from it, a nasty smell of stale petrol appeared . After investigation, the pump was gunked up with a fine brown gunk. Modern petrol is the culprit here , it leaves a brown film on fuel components , it can block jets and cause trouble in petrol tanks .

re: the valve guides , American auto parts in Ballarat have the generic early chevy guides, over 3" long , for $5 each. I will machine them to length .

I also got a aluminium timing gear to fit , I've seen the old fibre gears strip teeth too often .

[Mike K]

Well, the engine has had a run, warmed up and had a listen, could not hear anything out of order . The mystery noise comes and goes .

The water pump bearing is growly, this is a problem Ive always had with these engines. You buy a old stock kit, made 60 years ago, and the bearing grease has dried out , you install the kit and give it a try , the bearing sounds horrible . You buy a modern bearing , made in Taiwan, it lasts 3 months and is stuffed and wobbly and the pump leaks .

What do you do ? The bearing is a sealed unit. I will dismantle one and see if it is possible to re lube it somehow ?

The 75 year old radiator is also leaky ..looking rather sad . May have to do the recore .... save some pennies .

[Mike K]

Ok

I tried something. the NOS bearing from a 50 year old water pump kit , I managed to grind a small hole into it, I can now squeeze some wheel bearing grease in there and fill up the bearing with grease

I used a tiny air powered grinder with carbide and diamond bits, the metal is very hard on this bearing

[cletrac (RIP)]

They make needles to use with a grease gun for jobs like that.

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by cletrac

They make needles to use with a grease gun for jobs like that.

maybe this radiator can be made to fit the C8

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HOTROD-24...item3aa958923f

the outlets need to be moved

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HOT-ROD-C...item418f973725

this one looks better

[Hendrik van Oorspronk]

I am almost sure it is the Pulley/balancer in front of the crankshaft, my C60S had the same problem(I think). The pulley is riveted together and there was some play on de rivets.

Greetings

Hendrik

[Mike K]

I managed to disassemble the water pump.

These pumps are a pain to work on. A shop press is needed and it is very easy to damage the cast housing of the pump if too much pressure is applied ( been there , done that ) ,a fracture results , rendering the housing useless . In this case heat was applied to the impeller in order to release it from the bearing .

It is most important to use a sleeve over the pump housing while pressing on the bearing shaft . I machined up a sleeve .

A puller is needed top remove the fan hub , if the hub is really stuck, it can bend under the pressure from the puller .. Ive done this too !

The seal surface in the pump housing needs to be cleaned up , it has wear ridges and score marks .

This is a single hole pump . Not sure if the later CMP's used the two hole type ?

[Mike K]

I spent a little time today facing the water pump seal . There must be lots of ways to do this type of job, I used what I had . Took about .010" off the face .

I plan on using a modern mechanical seal , instead of the 1940's era seal. The modern seals have a hard ceramic face, and they perform much better than the old seals .

[Maurice Donckers]

Never use wheel bearing grease in a water pump , the temperature is too hot , and it will melt out , and run dry . Use special water pump grease ,like what you have to put in a Dodge screw in lubricator

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Maurice Donckers

Never use wheel bearing grease in a water pump , the temperature is too hot , and it will melt out , and run dry . Use special water pump grease ,like what you have to put in a Dodge screw in lubricator

Wheel bearing grease is high temp rated , that is why I am using it . I don't agree with your theory , sorry

BTW I suggest that you do some research before splurting out incorrect information .

Mike

[Richard Farrant]

Mike,
You might find this of interest;
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/product...id_products=88

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Richard Farrant

Mike,
You might find this of interest;
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/product...id_products=88

hi Richard

This the grease I have used in the water pump bearing . It is rated to 200 C ..is that high enough ?

http://www.google.com.au/url?q=http:...M6UzgR5nNAFFaQ

[Maurice Donckers]

Sorry , do some research , I come from the lubricant busines , and if you talk about wheel bearing grease , then this is not high melting point grease by standard , then you should have mentioned it , I just wanted to warn , and help .

[Richard Farrant]

Hi Mike,
I am with Maurice on this, I only use proper water pump grease when overhauling pumps. Having been in vehicle engineering world for 48 years, you learn what to use and what not. It is formulated to work in a pump environment with heat and water present, where wheel bearing grease is not suitable.

regards, Richard

[Hendrik van Oorspronk]

When you are ready with the waterpump, check if there is any play on the crankshaft pulley, if you can move it just a bit on the balancer it sounds like a worn bearing.
Just listened the video for the first time, now I am almost sure your pulley is loose on the balancer.

Hendrik

[Lionelgee]

Originally Posted by Richard Farrant

Hi Mike,
I am with Maurice on this, I only use proper water pump grease when overhauling pumps. Having been in vehicle engineering world for 48 years, you learn what to use and what not. It is formulated to work in a pump environment with heat and water present, where wheel bearing grease is not suitable.

regards, Richard

Hello Richard,

Can you please supply the name of the product and manufacturer for the water pump grease?

I did do some research and I found it difficult to discern between automotive "water pump grease" and irrigation pump-type "water pump grease".

I am not sure if irrigation pump-type "water pump grease" does effectively transfers across to an automotive use?

I found this product mentioned on a number of forums - including outboard motors for boats and also Mopar.

The company mentioned is "Lubliplate Div of Fiske Bros"; their web site cites that LUBRIPLATE "No. 115 is the ideal water pump lubricant. These lubricants offer a long lasting film of protection for light duty applications." http://www.lubriplate.com/Products/M...30-Series.html

Technical details about No. 115, accessed from an Amazon page - LUBRIPLATE No. 115 is the ideal water pump lubricant. These lubricants offer a long lasting film of protection for light duty applications. Typical Tests LUBRIPLATE No. 100 105 107 110 115 Type of Base Calcium Worked Penetration Semi- @ 77°F Fluid 355/385 310/340 235/260 175/205 Unworked Penetration 30 gram cone @ 77°F 365/375 ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- NLGI No. 00 0 1 2.5 4 ASTM Dropping Point 170°F 170°F 180°F 190°F 210°F 77°C 77°C 82°C 88°C 99°C Mineral Oil Viscosity SUS @ 100°F 300 cSt @ 40°C 58 58 58 58 58 Character Smooth Color Off-White Off-White Off-White Off-White Off-White ISO-9001 Registered Quality System. ISO-21469 Compliant.

Accessed 2/06/2015 from http://www.amazon.com/Lubriplate-115.../dp/B00N783WN4

Outboard motor website about Lubiplate No 115 Accessed 2/06/2015 from, http://johnsoldmercurysite.com/phpBB...?t=1767#p11966

An "Old Jalopy" website does mention the Lubriplate No. 115 Accessed 2/06/2015 from, http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t.../#post-5211043

Also mentioned at a Dodge Power Wagon site Accessed 2/06/2015 from, http://www.dodgepowerwagon.com/best/...mp_grease.html

Kind Regards
Lionel

[Mike K]

The water pump bearing in the 216 chevy uses an enclosed maintenance free modern type bearing, it has a ball race at each end . These bearings were packed with grease when manufactured and were not intended to be repacked , these type of bearings are still widely used in auto water pumps , even my XF Falcon uses one .

The grease for the older style water pumps, pre 1940's , with grease nipples would have to be specific grease , I agree . For the modern style pump bearings, the wheel bearing grease is ideal .

Older water pumps often have bronze bushes as bearings and are packed with graphite rope packing as seals ..... I think the water pump grease is more suited to this application .

Mike

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Lionelgee

Hello Richard,

Can you please supply the name of the product and manufacturer for the water pump grease?

I did do some research and I found it difficult to discern between automotive "water pump grease" and irrigation pump-type "water pump grease".

Hi Lionel,
Click on the link I put in my earlier post;
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/product...id_products=88
This is an Australian product and specified for older vehicles. Ones I have used are from UK manufacturers, such as Castrol, etc.
At the end of the day, it is your choice or preference, but I have not had one fail from lack of lubrication when using this type of grease.

regards, Richard

[Mike K]

Back to the pump rebuild

Before I continue with the description and pics . This mod to my water pump was done without any permission from anybody. It is my pump and I do with it as I wish.

That is enough sarcasm from me .

I decided to ditch plan A and go to plan B

I bored out the pump housing on my mill/drill, using a home made boring head .

The seal is a two part seal as used in swimming pool pumps and fire fighting pumps and myriad other applications , these seals are easy to buy and are known as 'mechanical seals ' . I used a 5/8" seal .

Any machine shop can do this simple mod .

The last thing is to machine up an adapter for the ceramic seal, to fit it into the impeller

Thats it

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Mike

Now for the big test how does the new bearing / seal work in the truck. Please keep us posted on the road test.

With all the comments on replacing and rebuilding water pumps on Chevy CMPs I have been hesitant to mention that my HUP still has it's original water pump. The truck will be 70 years old in 4 days. Life of water pumps probably are most effected by the coolant used. Straight water being the worst, ethanol glycol seeming to be the best.

I didn't want to jinx it and have it fail, my other two 216 engines did get new water pumps, which were available off the shelf from regular auto parts sources. The replacement engines the 261 and 235 both have the 216 style water pump. In both cases this required pushing the pulleys off to replace them with correct diameter and width. Each time had my fingers crossed that the bearing and seals would survive.

Now to anyone who has relubricate an old bearing how has it worked in the long haul? How many miles or years have they gone? Do they leak or get noisy first?

Cheers Phil

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi Mike

Now for the big test how does the new bearing / seal work in the truck. Please keep us posted on the road test.

With all the comments on replacing and rebuilding water pumps on Chevy CMPs I have been hesitant to mention that my HUP still has it's original water pump. The truck will be 70 years old in 4 days. Life of water pumps probably are most effected by the coolant used. Straight water being the worst, ethanol glycol seeming to be the best.

I didn't want to jinx it and have it fail, my other two 216 engines did get new water pumps, which were available off the shelf from regular auto parts sources. The replacement engines the 261 and 235 both have the 216 style water pump. In both cases this required pushing the pulleys off to replace them with correct diameter and width. Each time had my fingers crossed that the bearing and seals would survive.

Now to anyone who has relubricate an old bearing how has it worked in the long haul? How many miles or years have they gone? Do they leak or get noisy first?

Cheers Phil

hi Phil

I have seen the pump kit for the 235 conversion, I think the 235 engine is slightly longer than a 216 and the fan can be too close to the radiator in some vehicles .

I did a similar mod to what I have done to the 216 pump , in a Series 1 Land Rover some years ago, the Rover is still running fine, no leaks at all. The technology in modern seals these days is far better than the older style seals ever were.

The 216 engines did change in 1941 . I believe all of the CMP engines were basically a 1940 engine with dome pistons .

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Hendrik van Oorspronk

When you are ready with the waterpump, check if there is any play on the crankshaft pulley, if you can move it just a bit on the balancer it sounds like a worn bearing.
Just listened the video for the first time, now I am almost sure your pulley is loose on the balancer.

Hendrik

Thanks for the advice . I will check that out . Mike

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Mike

As you mentioned

"I have seen the pump kit for the 235 conversion, I think the 235 engine is slightly longer than a 216 and the fan can be too close to the radiator in some vehicles "

yes this is why I had to remove and press on a different pulley.

My experience doing the conversion on the 261 and 235 was that the block is not longer it is the extra 1/4" of the adapter plate plus the positioning of the and shape of pulley on the later 216 water pumps. The new or rebuilt water pumps that I was using all had the the narrow style pulley that I removed and replaced with the old style pulley flange and pulley.

As to the domed piston, ran into this when I rebuilt the engine on my HUP a few years ago, needed a new head because mine had some cracks developing, they had not leaked yet. The only NOS head I could get was for the flat topped pistons which meant I had to change pistons, not a problem as the cylinders were being bored which the pistons had to be changed. Pictures of the piston and head http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/H...May%20Work.htm

Be careful of how you remove or drive on the crank pulley real easy to deform the hand crank boss. Made a tool that fit in the center hole and put the driving force across through the hand crank slots this way when pulley is driven on it doesn't damage the boss.



Cheers Phil