Sherman ARV at Camp Borden??

[Bob Phillips]

About 10 (or maybe 20 )years ago I supplied some engine parts for a GAA powered Sherman based, ARV at Camp Borden. When I stopped in at the museum there this summer and asked the curator about this vehicle he knew nothing about it and said no such vehicle existed. Could someone out there who is familiar with the comings and goings at the Camp tell where the vehicle is b ased? I know it was not part of the museum collection. Years ago they had been running it in a parade and put a rod through the engine. When they finally got a new block and OH parts it did run again. Where is it now??

[Yeo.NT]

BoB

The ARV is at the Canadian Forces School of Electrical Mechanical Engineers (CFSEME) CFB Borden, I have crawled through it while on course, it is either storesd indoors our outside depending on the need of floor space for teaching aids.
In one of the EME Journals there is a article about it being found on a firing range in Germany and recovered back Laar, Germany. Once Laar was closed down it was brought home to the school in Borden. I will try to track down the article and post it at a later date.

[rob love]

Isn't is something that a curator of a museum that displayed military vehicles would not know about something vintage of that size operating on the same base.

While in Borden on one of my courses, I recall the vehicle having arrived and someone coming to the museum (where I would hang out in the off time from the course) looking for the semi gloss olive paint. I almost floored him when I was able to rattle off the NSN from the top of my head. It really was not that big a deal as the 3 camo colours and the semi gloss colour were all in the same ballpark for their NSNs (8010-21-880-9628,29,30 and 50) so really if you could remember one you could remember all three.

[maple_leaf_eh]

I found the current edition on the interweb. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.


+EME Journal@202DA@Montreal

EME.Journal@forces.gc.ca

[Robin Craig]

Bob,

There are many things on Bases tucked away and known to a very few.

That was the case this summer when I came upon this at Borden

[Frank v R]

Since you guys asked , here is the scoop on the ARV, now first it is important to know that this ARV is a M-74 , these are post war conversions of M4A3E8 Shermans , these were built between 1950-55, a heavier recovery vehicle was needed due to the M-26 Pershing, the M-32 just could not do it, some brain trust has come up with the idea to remove the engine ,paint it up in WW 2 colours and markings for Holland then place it on a concrete pad to rot at the new RCEME museum location at the SIGS Museum in Kingston, the Tech that did the restoration is not happy and I think it is to late to stop,

[Ed Storey]

"some brain trust has come up with the idea to remove the engine ,paint it up in WW 2 colours and markings for Holland then place it on a concrete pad to rot at the new RCEME museum location at the SIGS Museum in Kingston, the Tech that did the restoration is not happy and I think it is to late to stop"

It is all about having things for kids to climb on and 'bird's nests' on display and little about the actual history.

Nice to see that the same old 1950s mindset is alive and strong in the CF musetainment community.

[Bob Phillips]

Thanks for all the input ! I will see if I can locate the vehicle in the next couple of weeks. I do not wish to be unduly critical but it seems a shame to turn this vehicle into a monument. I know for fact that considerable time and money went into getting this vehicle running again after the first engine failure. In fact the "new" engine (all the way from south carolina) had to be redone again when after the first rebuild the "mechanic" failed to follow recommended procedure and plane the head and tops of the cylinder sleeves (sleeves stick up too high) and so when they torqued down the heads and put in the antifreeze it ran out on the floor.

[maple_leaf_eh]

http://www.emebranchgem.ca/english/view.asp?x=898

Sigh, some of the back end work that has to happen with volunteer museums.

[Dean (Ajax)]

I am glad to see that many on this forum are AGAIN insulting and hammering those that try to keep the Museums alive. Perhaps a little research before you spout off would be good.

That Sherman that this thread started about is NOT part of the Borden Museum collection..it is one of a few Vehs that are owned and paid for by the CFEME Association, and is held at the CFEME school...not by the Museum!!!!

Perhaps when the question was asked as to where it was..the person they talked to might have been a Volanteer.. or one of those Military People that is there for a day or a week to help out.

Regardless..it is so very easy to insault those that are trying to save our Military History...


Just My Thoughts. waiting for the shit storm

Dean O

[David Herbert]

No need for a shit storm ! In Bob's first post he specificaly says that he knows it is not part of the museum collection. No one disagreed with him as far as I can see but people did lament that a vehicle that had been brought to running condition should be plinthed outside.

That seems fair comment to me. We all know that all organisations and enthusiasts have finite resorces. I have had to store things in damp conditions in the past with the result that they deteriorated. It was certainly a bad thing to do but you can only do your best. My pet hate is when things are scrapped when they could be offered to other people / organisations.

David

[Bob Phillips]

Well first a thankyou to Dave for pointing out that I asked about a vehicle that was not part of the museum collection and seemed lost on the base somewhere.
In fairness the gentleman I talked to told me they had 50 plus outdoor exhibits to keep track of but never heard tell of the said ARV. I point out again that I had a personal interest in the fate of the vehicle as I was involved in locating the replacement engine and parts. No slam here, though as I pointed out the haste at which the reassembly occurred resulted in temporary difficulties.
So with respect to the Base Borden museum they have an amazing collection of vehicles and you can get close enough to rub elbows with them all. I do find it frustrating that so little resources are available to restore, display them in a more interactive way with the general public, but then the function of the armed forces is not primarily to do with museums.
It is probably also true that museums such as Bordens feel like they are dammed if the do and dammed if they don't when they try something. Some years ago they sandblasted all the outdoor exhibits and repainted them' removing any specific markings but preserving the vehicles under a fresh coat of paint. Some in the restoration community were critical of this.
And finally they are justifiably gunshy about dealing with the public or hobby enthusiasts. Most of us in Ontario remember the fiasco a few years back when a high school shop program proposed to restore and repower a Sherman firefly. It did not end well - if for no other reason that when you get down to it armor is expensive to repair, to drive and to transport, hardly a job for a novice.
What is the answer? I dont know but it bothers me to see vehicles rotting that could be restored and running. The gatepost Sherman ( Grizzly?) does have a complete radial engine in it- could it have gone into the firefly? There are at least 2 Shermans In Ontario bases with Chrysler multibanks, and couldn't they collection of T54/55 &0,90 etc been started up once or twice per year to keep them mobile?? Just a few thoughts...

[Robert Bergeron]

My friends,

I am late reading this post . Sorry.

We must admire and encourage our curators and volonteers who work and keep the CF Museums going against incredible budgetary odds.


Cheers.

[jdmcm]

In my opinion, we should be courting Canadian corporations to assist in funding the restoration and preservation of our heritage. I do not want to get into a political debate here but they have greatly benefited over many years from favorable tax and environmental legislation in Canada so why not give back? I for one do not want to see our forces choosing between preserving our military heritage and being ill equipped. Has this partnership been tried before or is it even in place now? I know in the UK they use lottery funds to assist with the Tank Museum and other collections...maybe this is an option as well? Come on Lotto max! Daddy needs to repaint the ARV!

[Robin Craig]

One was spotted on the Highway 401 at Brighton heading eastbound yesterday.

Can anyone enlighten whose and where it was going?

My thoughts was either Port of Montreal for export or up to Canadian War Museum in Ottawa.

Anyone else have any knowledge?

[rob love]

There was talk on this forum of the one from Borden moving to Kingston for use as a monument with the RCEME museum.

[Robin Craig]

Dear Rob

thanks for the info

I will go for a look see Wednesday

[rob love]

Pretty sure FrankV is not going to like the results of this thread.

[JWhitham]

Robin,

It wasn't coming to the Canadian War Museum.

Jim Whitham

[Frank v R]

off to Kingston to sit on a concrete pad , I think that the Corps should hang it's head in shame , taking a running restored vehicle and turning it into junk, I know that a friend in Gagetown will not let any of his vehicles go to the Corps now , nor will I,

[Robin Craig]

Welcome Jim Witham, we should talk, I have some trinkets for you sir.

Went for a wander yesterday but did not find it, looked in all the usual places. Will make enquiries with PAFO and other lower down contacts and report back

Robin

[Robin Craig]

So here I am, back again before you all, reporting back as promised.

I had put a call in to the Public Affairs Officer (PAFO) and yesterday I received a call back from Base Kingston from a Major (name forgotten) who told me there were no current plans that he was aware of to monumentise (I like inventing English) an M74 or Sherman, period.

I ask him if he was the PAFO, he said no, I asked why he was calling, he said because it was his department (base construction engineering function) that would be responsible for building a pad and he had no orders to do one and that the pad down by the Comms Museum was not for a Sherman but what it is for he could not recall.

So Frank VR and the Corps can raise their heads and I can only surmise the vehicle went for export or to a collector

regards

Robin

[Robert Bergeron]

Last seen on the 401 going east i presume ?

People were thinking of Kingston ( Base ) , Ottawa ( CWM ) or Montréal for export.

But in between these three destinations there is a place where there are many monuments and gate guards : Cornwall !

Worth investigating.

[Ed Storey]

Has anyone confirmed that the M74 is no longer in CFB Borden and more importantly has anyone approached the museum asking about the vehicle?

[Frank v R]

I was in Borden Sunday for the Levee and spoke with the Base Chief (RCEME) and no one is happy, this has been in the works for almost a year now , the RCEME school Chief contacted me to find out if the OntR museum would be interested in the engine and other parts from the ARV as it would be going to Kingston as part of the new RCEME museum as a monument, I was later contacted as to a paint scheme for the M-74 for WW2 Holland, you can guess what I told him, so it's over to you Robin , it must be there somewhere on Base, I can only guess on the paint job and markings that are on it now, and no collector would have gotten this vehicle , it is part of the RCEME historic vehicle collection and therefore on the DA,

[Bob Phillips]

If this works you should find a picture and details of this vehicle;

http://preservedtanks.com/Profile.aspx?UniqueID=2434


B.P.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Frank v R

I was in Borden Sunday for the Levee and spoke with the Base Chief (RCEME) and no one is happy, this has been in the works for almost a year now , the RCEME school Chief contacted me to find out if the OntR museum would be interested in the engine and other parts from the ARV as it would be going to Kingston as part of the new RCEME museum as a monument, I was later contacted as to a paint scheme for the M-74 for WW2 Holland, you can guess what I told him, so it's over to you Robin , it must be there somewhere on Base, I can only guess on the paint job and markings that are on it now, and no collector would have gotten this vehicle , it is part of the RCEME historic vehicle collection and therefore on the DA,

Through my Sherman Register I was contacted by a member of the RCEME School, CFB Borden, asking for information as they were working on a project converting an M74 Recovery Vehicle into a monument in Ontario. Note: this was last November, so plans may have changed in the meantime.

H.

[Robin Craig]

Well, the plot thickens.

Guess what I found today?

Yep, the same as spotted on the 401 a while back.

[rob love]

Interesting green......it looks like the green they used to paint the inside of the M113s with.

[Robert Bergeron]

Great find .

At least we now know where it is .

It is shame it will be turned into a gate guard when not long ago it was a working piece of history..