Scout T5329

[Ben]

Hi David

OK, so two people have said the springs are a "balance" rather than for recoil so I've been out to the workshop and had a play.

I've fixed a bar onto the front plate at the height of the square hole (accepted pivot or mounted height) to simulate the back of the gun, sitting in the gunners seat you literally have to hang onto the bar to get it to move a tiny amount. you'd need to me a power lifter to move the bar to any sort of useful amount. Trying to fire a rifle whilst using all your strength/body weight to get the required elevation doesn't seem very practical.

They are very strong springs and they push forward. For them to balance the gun surely they'd need to allow movement up and down? At the minute the gunner would have to be holding the gun under an enormous amount of strain to even move it off the fully forward position. There is only really movement backwards and that is using a lot of force.

My money is still on recoil. The gun must elevate freely between the two clamps. Once the trigger has been pulled the rearward force of the shot is absorbed by the spring and then it returns to the forward position.

Ben

[David Dunlop]

Nice practical test, Ben. Never having seen a Boys up close and in person it makes sense to me.

If the mystery square pin adapter was fitted to the rifle, it would appear to place the line of the barrel at, or just above the top of the two side wing nuts that clamp everything into place. That is very likely just high enough for the force of the recoil to rock the upper portion of the mount back against the springs, before they hit the angled stops and absorb a chunk of the recoil energy. The springs then return the rifle to the 'ready position' as it were.

For balance, I think the springs would need to be arranged in some fashion between the gun itself and the mount body. These springs look contained within the mount itself.

Ever considered emailing some photos of the mount to the Enfield Pattern Room in England? They might just have details on the missing piece.

David

PS: The contact for the Enfield Pattern Room is enquiries@armouries.org.uk

The photos of the mount alone, in situ in the carrier and Tony's two of the potential adapter for the Boys rifle would probably narrow the search down for them, Ben.

[kevin powles]

I think those two springs are actually boys rifle buffer tube recoil springs.

[Rich Payne]

Ben, have you seen this alternative view of the 13th/18th Hussars carrier that overturned at Hamme-Mille ?



It may be worth asking Andrew Foulkes if he has or knows who might have the originals from this series.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Rich Payne

Ben, have you seen this alternative view of the 13th/18th Hussars carrier that overturned at Hamme-Mille ?

13201820R20Hussars20Hamme20Mille20c_zps3xhkdnbo - Copy.jpg


This photo is much clearer. It shows the trunnion bearing unchanged, which means the cradle itself must have been modified. Perhaps a length of square bar machined round at one end and welded in place...?


Boys anti tank rifle Kevin Powles MLU - Copy (4) - Copy - Copy - Copy.jpg

boys anti tank rifle kevin powles mlu - copy (2) - copy - Copy.jpg


Alternatively, is it possible the monopod swivel could be modified instead...?

BoysAT_accessories.jpg

[Jordan Baker]

What is the distance between the two uprights on this mount?

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Jordan Baker

What is the distance between the two uprights on this mount?

I think I know where you might be going with this. Vickers? Perhaps there was a Vickers mount apart from a Boys one?

If it is Boys the fitting to adapt to this bracket must be strange. There isn't anything on a Boys rifle at that point except the trunion blocks and I can't see them having the crew undo two little taper screws to install a special bracket, especially since most things carrier were designed to be dismounted for regular ground use. That, plus the pics show the monopod folded in it's horizontal position which would support a 'quick release' something.

[The Bedford Boys]

Here's a picture of a sketch of a Boys mount for an LP Carrier.
My phone has flipped picture sideways...

[Lynn Eades]

Richard P. That is a good detail photo. Any chance of sending me high res. copies of what you can get on that carrier?
Kevin, You have a Boys? With regards to Tony's photos (red peg, red square) What do those pins do? and how do they come out? Tony's idea is good to me.
Your buffer spring appears to have about 19 turns, while those on Ben's mount appear to count about 14/15. Are they cut down buffer springs on the mount?Free length? As Alex points out, recuperator springs in guns are often square section.
Bruce, A Vickers water cooled M.G. wouldn't fit through the gun apeture in the Scout. Not in the lower section, that is.

The bits will turn up. For years I never knew anything about Bren 100 round mags, then I came across a box for them with the instructions under the lid. Then later someone on this forum made a run of them (mags)

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Ben

My money is still on recoil. The gun must elevate freely between the two clamps.

Yes, if the springs are as strong as you describe they can only be for recoil, which means rotation must occur between the clamps as you say Ben. However it's unclear to me exactly how this would be achieved. I suspect it means the cradle itself must be modified, as the monopod pivot point seems too low to be used. That is, the barrel would strike the top of the hull aperture upon elevation. Seems to me the gun needs to sit lower in the clamp. You could try using a string line to determine the required pivot point.

It's certainly a brain teaser, you may need to get hold of an actual Boys to figure it all out.


IMG_5164 - Copy.jpg