Scout T5329

[The Bedford Boys]

I've seen photos of Boys rifles mounted in Australian Carriers, but haven't yet seen any photos of them in Kiwi carriers. So these mounts existed in Australia at least.

My hull having the holes for this mount could be a cross-over from the Australian blue-prints on which our kiwi LP's are based? There are Boys rifles here in NZ though, so they could've been mounted in Carriers.

There is a boys mount in the LP Carrier books that is essentially two hooks that clamp the rifle down on to the bracket. The bracket then fixes to any vertical flat plate on the carrier. Perhaps this kind of hook arrangement is also used in the Scout mount? I'll see if I can find a picture to show you what I mean.

[Lynn Eades]

They may have gone with most of the 106 recoiless rifles, and most of the M113s

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Ben

There must be a fitting thats clamped to the Boys rifle that allows it to fit the mount, this would mean it could be dropped into the mount and locked into place by the wing nut clamps. Any pictures or suggestions are very welcome!!

Congratulations on your miraculous find Ben. Now we just need to figure out how it works!




Photo shows the gun is clamped adjacent to the trunnion, which leads me to suspect they used special trunnion bearings with projections to fit the clamps. That way there'd be no need to modify the cradle (which would inevitably involve welding and/or drilling) and the parts would offer quick easy field mod for Boys rifles in service.









Note that the gun mount springs are NOT intended to absorb recoil. Their purpose is to counterbalance the rifle so it rests horizontally, rather than pointing skyward and requiring the gunner to lift the heavy butt end. That's why one clamp is square, to eliminate rotation at that point. Vertical elevation is provided by the hinge pin at the bottom.


Cheers,
Tony

[Ben]

Hi Tony

I agree that a trunnion method similar to what you have drawn could be a good answer to the problem. It's very similar to what I'd imagined the fitting would look like.

The square hole does suggest that it's for stopping rotation but the springs aren't a counterbalance, they're far too strong. Even with the leverage of the gun you'd have to really force against the springs for any sort of evlevation, you can't compress them with your hand.

There are pictures of Scouts in a line and the gun barrels are all at the same angle and another at different angles, this suggests that they're free to move. The part at the rear of the flat rotation plate is a rubber rest. I've assumed that the gun sits against this when not in use, when needed the gunner lifts the butt and has free movement in a similar fashion to the way the Bren mount is used.

I've looked at an unhealthy number of period carrier pictures to try and understand how the gun fits into the mount, no real answers. Discussion here is good as it gets us all thinking.

Thanks

Ben

[Ben]

All at the rest position?

[Ben]

Different angles but whilst at rest.

[David Dunlop]

Ben.

This is a very interesting little piece of kit. Full of mysteries at the moment.

I have been looking at the photo you posted of the mount installed in your Carrier. I agree those are very hefty springs, clearly designed to push everything back into a 'resting position' whenever necessary. When i look at the top of the two spring assemblies, it appears as if the centre rods of the springs are fastened to the upper mount arm by some sort of heavy machine screw or bolt. It also appears as if the outer face of the upper, or forward metal supports are machined away at the top of each central rod assembly. This would suggest they have been designed to allow a certain amount of movement against the springs before reaching a full stop.

My thoughts on this for what they are worth.

The square hole on the right hand side of the mount would allow for only two practical positions for placement of whatever adapter was fitted to the Boys Rifle. Essentially a high and low position. Would this serve any practical purpose in the Carrier.

The Boys Rifle would be long enough to act as a lever against those two springs. It does look like the lower horizontal hinge pin allows for most of the potential elevation of the Boys Rifle, but if you elevated the rifle to the limit of that pin, would the spring assemblies kick in to allow just a little bit more height adjustment and serve as a warning you are running out of elevation?

David

[Lynn Eades]

I would think that with the Boys reputation for "kicking like a mule", that the springs are there to soften recoil.
If the unknown (still missing) mounting assembly was free to rotate in its self, then that would work.
Maybe the square is to help it stay tight in the clamps?
I would doubt any "field mods" were carried out to mount these rifles.

[Ben]

Hi David

OK, so two people have said the springs are a "balance" rather than for recoil so I've been out to the workshop and had a play.

I've fixed a bar onto the front plate at the height of the square hole (accepted pivot or mounted height) to simulate the back of the gun, sitting in the gunners seat you literally have to hang onto the bar to get it to move a tiny amount. you'd need to me a power lifter to move the bar to any sort of useful amount. Trying to fire a rifle whilst using all your strength/body weight to get the required elevation doesn't seem very practical.

They are very strong springs and they push forward. For them to balance the gun surely they'd need to allow movement up and down? At the minute the gunner would have to be holding the gun under an enormous amount of strain to even move it off the fully forward position. There is only really movement backwards and that is using a lot of force.

My money is still on recoil. The gun must elevate freely between the two clamps. Once the trigger has been pulled the rearward force of the shot is absorbed by the spring and then it returns to the forward position.

Ben

[David Dunlop]

Nice practical test, Ben. Never having seen a Boys up close and in person it makes sense to me.

If the mystery square pin adapter was fitted to the rifle, it would appear to place the line of the barrel at, or just above the top of the two side wing nuts that clamp everything into place. That is very likely just high enough for the force of the recoil to rock the upper portion of the mount back against the springs, before they hit the angled stops and absorb a chunk of the recoil energy. The springs then return the rifle to the 'ready position' as it were.

For balance, I think the springs would need to be arranged in some fashion between the gun itself and the mount body. These springs look contained within the mount itself.

Ever considered emailing some photos of the mount to the Enfield Pattern Room in England? They might just have details on the missing piece.

David

PS: The contact for the Enfield Pattern Room is enquiries@armouries.org.uk

The photos of the mount alone, in situ in the carrier and Tony's two of the potential adapter for the Boys rifle would probably narrow the search down for them, Ben.

[kevin powles]

I think those two springs are actually boys rifle buffer tube recoil springs.

[Rich Payne]

Ben, have you seen this alternative view of the 13th/18th Hussars carrier that overturned at Hamme-Mille ?



It may be worth asking Andrew Foulkes if he has or knows who might have the originals from this series.

[Jordan Baker]

What is the distance between the two uprights on this mount?

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Jordan Baker

What is the distance between the two uprights on this mount?

I think I know where you might be going with this. Vickers? Perhaps there was a Vickers mount apart from a Boys one?

If it is Boys the fitting to adapt to this bracket must be strange. There isn't anything on a Boys rifle at that point except the trunion blocks and I can't see them having the crew undo two little taper screws to install a special bracket, especially since most things carrier were designed to be dismounted for regular ground use. That, plus the pics show the monopod folded in it's horizontal position which would support a 'quick release' something.

[The Bedford Boys]

Here's a picture of a sketch of a Boys mount for an LP Carrier.
My phone has flipped picture sideways...

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Rich Payne

Ben, have you seen this alternative view of the 13th/18th Hussars carrier that overturned at Hamme-Mille ?

This photo is much clearer. It shows the trunnion bearing unchanged, which means the cradle itself must have been modified. Perhaps a length of square bar machined round at one end and welded in place...?







Alternatively, is it possible the monopod swivel could be modified instead...?

[Lynn Eades]

Richard P. That is a good detail photo. Any chance of sending me high res. copies of what you can get on that carrier?
Kevin, You have a Boys? With regards to Tony's photos (red peg, red square) What do those pins do? and how do they come out? Tony's idea is good to me.
Your buffer spring appears to have about 19 turns, while those on Ben's mount appear to count about 14/15. Are they cut down buffer springs on the mount?Free length? As Alex points out, recuperator springs in guns are often square section.
Bruce, A Vickers water cooled M.G. wouldn't fit through the gun apeture in the Scout. Not in the lower section, that is.

The bits will turn up. For years I never knew anything about Bren 100 round mags, then I came across a box for them with the instructions under the lid. Then later someone on this forum made a run of them (mags)

[The Bedford Boys]

How wide is the Boys rifle frame? And how wide is the Boys mount between the posts?

I don't think they would've modified the gun itself to be honest. It doesn't come across as a very British way of doing things. I think the solution is a bit more complex!

[kevin powles]

If the mount is for the boys your your missing a complete adaptor of some description that attaches the boys frame to that mount, most likely attached to the frame via the monopod mounting screw, as its at this point it's strongest.

[Lynn Eades]

Kevin, the mount that Alex posted would work by hooking the hook bolts over the frame and pulling it down onto the grooves in the plate.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Ben

My money is still on recoil. The gun must elevate freely between the two clamps.

Yes, if the springs are as strong as you describe they can only be for recoil, which means rotation must occur between the clamps as you say Ben. However it's unclear to me exactly how this would be achieved. I suspect it means the cradle itself must be modified, as the monopod pivot point seems too low to be used. That is, the barrel would strike the top of the hull aperture upon elevation. Seems to me the gun needs to sit lower in the clamp. You could try using a string line to determine the required pivot point.

It's certainly a brain teaser, you may need to get hold of an actual Boys to figure it all out.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Ben

I've looked at an unhealthy number of period carrier pictures to try and understand how the gun fits into the mount

Now you've got me doing it too Ben!

[RichardT10829]

Trunion ring on the rifle appears to sit level with the armour... Ben how far back is the bracket mounts from the front armour ?

Once that data is known just measure back from the Trunion on the rifle

[Ben]

The Scout is the only carrier specifically designed to have the Boys fired whilst in the vehicle. The picture you posted of a universal carrier does show a Boys rifle sitting in the front slot but the only brackets to fit the Boys in a Universal are for stowage or transport, they're saddle type brackets or rests rather than a gun mount.
I think the gunner probably has the rifle sitting on the rubber gun rest at the bottom of the slot.

Ben

[RichardT10829]

Secondary Trunion ring adapt or fitted to the rifle which allows the mounting of the mono pod with a secondary hole for the mounting pin for the carrier cradle.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Ben

The picture you posted of a universal carrier does show a Boys rifle sitting in the front slot but the only brackets to fit the Boys in a Universal are for stowage or transport, they're saddle type brackets or rests rather than a gun mount.

Ben, it has the same bolt pattern as yours so I assumed it was the same mount.

I found a video which contains brief footage of Boys rifle mount in operation over rough terrain. It almost looks like it's on springs but I guess we've ruled that out...?

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/F01045/

[Rich Payne]

Keith who posts on here and owns an original of the photo has posted a close-up of the gunner's position on ww2talk. Unfortunately there were a number of fatal casualties from this incident and the bodies had not yet been removed.

http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/3631...e-mille/page-2



Perhaps those with a knowledge of the rifle might be able to pick something out from this.

[Ben]

Hi Richard

One of the photos from the WW2 talk thread shows a partial answer.

One of the problems with photos of Scout carriers is that the Boys rifle is nearly always in the front "Boys" mount, as we've seen this makes looking at the details difficult. The rear angle shows another Boys rifle lying on its side in the LH rear compartment, you can make out a cylindrical section pointing upwards. This isn't a normal fitting on a Boys so I think we can assume it's part of the gun mount fitting. This answers the fact that it's a simple drop in type fitting IMHO. Sadly a strap is obscuring other clues. Perhaps part of a Y shaped fitting going under the gun frame? The gun in the mount doesn't seem to have anything over the top?, Hard to say. The original on WW2 talk is clearer.

Abandonded Bren carriers with Boys rifles don't have this fitting as they don't have a Boys mount.

Perhaps there's another photo out there that will make it a little clearer.

Ben

[Lynn Eades]

Tony, those carriers are firstly Universal carriers and the later ones are Australian LP1s. No Scouts in it.

[kevin powles]

Ben, That Boys laying on its side is pretty conclusive regarding your mount being for that gun, what's the distance between the inner faces of clamping arangement for the gun?. I'm sure there's another picture out there that explains it all.