Info needed: Ford V8 water pump rebuild kits

[Tony Smith]

There is also a recent parallel discussion going on in THIS THREAD, perhaps the two could be merged?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

There is also a recent parallel discussion going on in THIS THREAD, perhaps the two could be merged?

Thanks for the heads up - done.

[Lynn Eades]

Here are James contact details.
James Saccoccio
Gotham Auto Parts,LLC
340 Cherry Street
Bedford Hills, NY 10507

sales@gothamautoparts.com
Tel: (718) 878-3699
Fax: (212) 519-7909

[Bob Carriere]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1937-1948-F.../153726647696?

[rob love]

Those are for the single pulley. They are the old style with the bronze bushing. That means you cannot tighten your belts like you would on a normal water pump or you will burn out those bushings. Personally, I would buy the new pumps before I ever installed one of those old type kits into an old pump.

[Tony Smith]

It may still be a worthwhile purchase for the components (if you like the price).

The impeller is cast iron and will also fit the cassette-type bearing used in the truck water pumps. Often these impellers are badly corroded and not suitable to re-use, or may be fractured when pulling them off the old bearing.

The Truck bearings are available separately, but kits are hard to come across. By using this kit with a separately purchased bearing, you can rebuild your original pump.

I try to buy any used truck water pumps I can find with good pulleys and impellers, because those bits are hard to find, but the bearings themselves are still a catalog item.

[rob love]

Those kits are still available from Mac's for $30 each. https://www.macsautoparts.com/early_...build-kit.html


A brand new pump with modern design is $64.99: https://www.macsautoparts.com/early_...build-kit.html


They also have kits for the later Flathead Ford 8BA engines which have the more modern style components. I wonder if there is any interchangeability with the 2 groove pulley pumps. https://www.macsautoparts.com/early_...build-kit.html

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Do you mean?

Originally Posted by rob love

Those kits are still available from Mac's for $30 each. https://www.macsautoparts.com/early_...build-kit.html

A brand new pump with modern design is $64.99: https://www.macsautoparts.com/early_...build-kit.html

https://www.macsautoparts.com/early_...and-95-hp.html ?

They also have kits for the later Flathead Ford 8BA engines which have the more modern style components. I wonder if there is any interchangeability with the 2 groove pulley pumps. https://www.macsautoparts.com/early_...build-kit.html

https://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_m...ad-239-v8.html ?

[rob love]

Yes....apparently I should not cut and paste until after my morning coffee.

[Lynn Eades]

We are confusing the bush pump and the bearing pump.
I thought this thread was on the bearing type pump (probably with double sheave pulley)

[Mike Gurr]

I have been in touch with James Saccoccio at Gotham Auto Parts who, as Lynn says is very helpful. His reply to my enquiry is as below. I have ordered a pair of kits and I will update the forum when I have received and fitted them.

Mike

Hello, and thanks for contacting me. You came to the right place!

The parts available today, specifically the seal assembly, is the style shown as the “optional” version in the illustration below. This simplifies the number of parts you will need to complete these pumps.

A complete kit will include the impeller, which I would recommend you replace, especially if you feel these pumps may have been disassembled at some stage in their life. The center hole of the impellers will become enlarged after being pressed on and off of the bearings shafts and may now create a poor kit when a new bearings is installed.

Complete kits are $44.95 each. Each kit includes:

(1) 8530 Sealed bearings and shaft
(1) 8512 Impeller
(1) 8551 Seal
(1) 8557 Carbon Cross Thrust washer
(1) 8574 Snap Ring
(1) Water pump to block gasket

[Tom Millward]

One disadvantage of the new type of single pulley water pump is that the output to the radiator bottom hose is shorter than the original and the special shaped bottom hose is too short to make the gap between the radiator and pump.

[Mike Gurr]

An update on my experiences to date. I bought a Jeep pump repair kit and while the bearing is the same size the end of the shaft which passes through the various seals into the impeller is larger than the Ford one so would need grinding down to fit or the impeller boring out, in either case the carbon disc, rubber seal and circlip are not the same as the Ford parts and do not fit. I then bought 2 repair kits from Gotham Auto parts being the correct truck pump repair kit shown on the pic below. My pump bodies needed the inside refacing as they were scored where the carbon disc seals against the casting so it all went to an engineering shop near me who specialises in vintage car water pumps, steering boxes etc. Unfortunately they have come back to me saying that the kit is good for all parts except the rubber bellows (Part 8551). This is poor and even when compressed does not seal around the shaft. I have emailed James at Gotham Auto parts but so far no reply, I guess they are not working at the moment. Unless anyone has a source for this part separately I am at a temporary halt. Any more info and I will update.

[Lynn Eades]

Hi Mike. I don't think the seal is supposed to seal on the shaft. The rubber end seals in the impellor and the carbon runs inside the pump housing. A successful seal at these two places prevents water getting to the shaft. As long as the assembled length has enough spring tension, it should be fine. I'm having trouble understanding where the problem is? Can you expand?
It is known that this old design has trouble holding water when used in conjunction with a pressure system. Having said that, I run a 4 lb system (Morris Minor cap) with no problems on these standard type pumps.

[Mike Gurr]

Hi Lynn,
You make a good point. I am no expert on these so am only repeating what the engineer who is assembling the pumps has told me. However your theory does make sense in that so long as the spring has sufficient pressure to keep both ends of the rubber bellows sealed against the carbon disc at one end and the impeller at the other it should be OK, or at least as good as these ever were.

[Lynn Eades]

Mike, I have a kit here. (I cannot remember if it came from James) It comes with the carbon bonded to the seal and also a "fibre" washer. I assume it goes inside the impellor? (nowhere else to go) BTW, the WWII Jeep uses the same type of seal however the seals were separate from the carbon and the jeep bearing has a bigger dia. shaft.

Tom, you might have some trouble running single pulley pumps. The reason why the double sheave, double belt arrangement is fitted is because it takes a lot of power to drive the fan. You can of course over come this problem by over tightening the single belt that you are left with. This however is likely to cause premature failure somewhere?

[Petr Brezina]

Hi Lynn, I believe that quality modern single belt can easily take it. They are surely more powerful than the war ones (Im running single belt too).

[Tony Smith]

The problem is not with the belt being able to withstand the tension, the problem is that a single belt in a single pulley has only half the surface area to grip than does a double pulley/belt arrangement. To ensure that the single belt does not slip, additional tension is required.

OK, a modern belt construction might be better able to withstand the tension needed to prevent slippage, but what about the rest? What does that addition tension do to the Generator/Fan mounting? http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...439#post268439

To avoid overstraining any fragile castings or prematurely causing bearing failure, you want to keep the belt tension as low as possible without allowing slippage. The double belt/pulley arrangement allows a lower tension. Combined with the ball bearing shaft in the double water pumps (compared to a plain bronze bush in a single pulley pump), this system gives a much longer, reliable life.

[Lynn Eades]

Tony, my response, exactly! Thank you for saving me the effort. :note

[Petr Brezina]

Of course that could be an issue, I can speak only from my personal experience. I have belt tensioned exactly according the manual, so its not overtensioned and no slippage there at all. I think that if you have new belt with correct V and with good surface (not a cracked, hard and polished one) it can works even with single pulley. You would be surprised how much power can one belt transfer.
But Im not questioning that double pulleys are more proper and nicer

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Ford water pump kit, part no. ET6 8591 - "a product of Ford Motor Co Ltd England".

The ET6 denotes it is a spare for the Fordson Thames ET6 Trader. As far as I can see these parts fit the Ford V8 engine as fitted in CMP trucks.

[Mike K]

This 'how to' is focused on the post war water pumps but it has some relevance.

https://myflatheadford.com/b-b-1949-...mp-rebuilding/

[Mike Gurr]

I had almost forgotten this thread but an update to my earlier posts. The pump repair kits from Gotham Auto Parts were fitted and pleased to say have been very good. Now fitted for a year to 18 months and still sealing well. Before fitting it is important to have the inside face of the pump body machined perfectly smooth where the carbon disc runs to ensure a good seal. The only issue I had was not having run the Carrier for nearly a year during lockdown as I could not get to it the pumps did leak on first running the engine again, I assume this was due to rust having formed on the sealing face of the pump body as following more running the leak has stopped.

[Lynn Eades]

Mike if you put a corrosion inhibitor in the cooling system it should stop that. The other benefits of that are that it should Lube your pump seals(so it is said) and it will stop the buildup of scale which greatly assists in heat transfer and therefore a more effective cooling system. This is important with the Ford flattie because they are known as "hot" engines. Bearing in mind that the engine is trapped in a box, the air flow entirely comes from the windmill at the front.
I run a 3 5/16" bore (which increases the potential for trouble) but in saying that I have done every thing I can to keep her running within range. I run 180 degree thermostats and a 4 pound cap(I made an adapter to take a Morris Minor cap) The original pressure cap is supposed to relieve at 3.5 pounds (during WWII Ford upgraded their radiator seam laps because they were splitting) Waffle finished
I'll add James's contact details here again. I take no pecuniary benefit from James. He has just treated me like a valued customer.

James Saccoccio
Gotham Auto Parts,LLC
340 Cherry Street
Bedford Hills, NY 10507

sales@gothamautoparts.com
Tel: (718) 878-3699
Fax: (212) 519-790

[Lynn Eades]

Having just looked through the link that Mike posted, I would suggest the following:
First, the impellor is sacrificial. Don't try to save it. It's junk!
Second. Drill a series of small holes straight down into the impellor, in a line across it, in an imaginary line through the bearing center. (don't go too deep)( you want to go right through the impellor, just!)
Then increase the drill size and re-drill those holes.(hopefully merging the holes?) The idea is to form a line of weakness across the impellor. Then take a suitable sharpish cold chisel and split the impellor. This approach will take some risk out stuffing your pump housing.
You can then press the bearing out from the back of the pump and lastly you press the bearing from your (well supported) pulley.
On the seals. There is some variation in the componentry. The ones in Hanno's picture have more parts than the ones from James. I think Hanno's kit is earlier and is obviously a British kit. The bearing is the same. Some people have spent big money investing in improved modern made pumps. I'm too tight for that.

The above applies to lots of press assembled water pumps across different manufacturers.

[Mike K]

I admit to breaking a few 216 Chevy water pump housings while pressing out the shaft. It's so easy to break them if everything isn't set up just right.

[Mike Gurr]

Agree with all the above, the kit from James comes with a new impellor, all you re use is the pump body and the pulley.