C8A HUM census numbers?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

This table of census numbers allocated to the Canadian Army Overseas narrows down your search:

55DF030F-66CD-4831-8742-68D6BA59F6DA.jpg
Source: Clive Law’s “Drive to Victory”

[M.Morren]

So, guessing mine should have a somewhat similar number as the ZL in the first picture of this thread, it would be somewhere in the 4208201 - 4214200 range. Ths indeed does narrow it down!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

You may also want to contact the author of this book? Rob Clarke is a member of this forum.

https://servicepub.com/product/the-h...nadian-service

weaponsofwarheavyutilitybookreviewcs_.jpg

[M.Morren]

Great idea! Will do.

Thanks.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

This table of census numbers allocated to the Canadian Army Overseas narrows down your search:

Source: Clive Law’s “Drive to Victory”

The list can also be found on a cached copy of Clive Law's website:

https://web.archive.org/web/20171204...allocation.htm

HTH,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Couple of pictures of a (new to me) C8A HUM in the Piana Delle Orme Museum in Italy.

Courtesy of Pierre-Olivier Buan.

118104558_2741834399366128_6247975561264756389_n.jpg 118083307_2741834276032807_934754473713665286_n.jpg

118405159_1543753212464259_2563192694183352062_n.jpg 118303665_1543753365797577_584867870172780764_n.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Marty, as discussed here is my list of known C8A HUM serial numbers. If you have anything to add to this list, please do.

Brian Gough may have more info too, have you asked him?

Chassis model | Cab Model | Chassis serial | Engine serial | Order no | Date of mfg | Vehicle model | Body Model | Body serial | Chrysler Serial-no | WD census no. | Source
C8A | 13 | 3844515289 | FR3918642 | LV.1697 | AUG. 12/43 | C.HU-441-M-PERS-1; 2nd plate: HU441-M-MACH-ZL-1 | 1C1 | 3924 | MACH-ZL-1-068 | ... | http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ght=3844515289 (Marty Morren, NL)
C8A | 13 | ... |... |... |... |... |... |... |... | CZ4210145 | https://flic.kr/p/pkDhQh
C8A | 13 | 3844536668 | FR3969158 | LV.2611 | MAY 11/44 | ... | ... | ... | ... | ... | http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...36668#post9656
C8A | 13 | 3844536670 | FR3969311 | LV.2611 | MAY 11/44 |C-8A-MACH-ZL-2 | ... | ... | ... |... | http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...670#post174430 (Pieter Bergman, NL)
C8A | 13 | 3844536671 | FR3969368 | LV.2611 | MAY 11/44 | ... |... |... |... |... | http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...671#post129049 (Mark Coombs, USA)
C8A | 13 | 3844536688 | FR3969099 | LV.2611 | MAY 12/44 | ... |... |... |... |... | http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...36688#post9656
C8A | 13 | 3844536691 | FR3968926 | LV.2611 | MAY 15/44 | [plate missing] |1C1 | 6443 | ... |... | http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ght=3844536691 (ex-Shayne McGuire, CDN - current location u/k)
C8A | 13 | 3844536696 | FR3969103 | LV.2611 | MAY 15/44 | C-8A-MACH-ZL-2; 2nd plate: HU441-M-MACH-ZL-1 | 1C1 | 6448 | MACH-ZL-1-087 | ... | http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ght=3844536696 (John Corden, UK)


Notes on data sources:


This information comes from the data plate on top of the dash, as fitted to all Chevrolets:

Chassis model | Cab Model | Chassis serial | Engine serial | Order no | Date of mfg
IMG_20190212_235220__01.jpg

The Vehicle model plate left of data plate on dash:

Vehicle model
Vehicle model plate sn 3844536670.jpg
Note: some have a second plate attached to the left of the Vehicle model plate during the conversion to HUM:
IMG_20190212_234950__01.jpg

The Body plate on rear of body - this plate was added to all C8A Heavy Utilities:

Body Model | Body serial
IMG_20190213_000627__01 (2).jpg

The Chrysler plate on rear of body - this plate was added during the conversion to HUM:

Chrysler Serial-no
IMG_20190213_000437__01 (2).jpg

The Number painted on the door:

WD census no.

And Information gleaned from an open source (most often this Forum):

Source

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by M.Morren

Just to add to this thread, here are some photos of the data plates of this HUM.

[snip]

I am a bit puzzled about these though. While the Chevrolet plate says that this is a ZL-2, the Chrysler plate next to it clearly says ZL-1. I would love to see what other ZL-2s plates say. Maybe all Chrysler plates are ZL-1 and only the Chevrolet plates got the update?

Also interesting to note: My dash plate also has the C stamped in the upper half. It is stamped right on the 'M' from 'Vehicle Model'.

My observations: the Vehicle model plate is fitted to the left of the ID plate as on all Chevrolets. Two production HUMs have a Vehicle model plate denoting them as "C-8A-MACH-ZL-2", whicle the addtional plate lists "HU441-M-MACH-ZL-1" which is also fitted to (what is thought to be one of) the prototype HUMs. I do not know why they have these conflicting model plates.

See the pictures below:

S/n 3844515289

Vehicle model plate: C.HU-441-M-PERS-1
Additional Vehicle model plate: HU441-M-MACH-ZL-1
C8A 3844515289 Vehicle model plate.jpg

S/n 3844536670

Vehicle model plate: C-8A-MACH-ZL-2
Additional Vehicle model plate: not present
C8A sn 3844536670 Vehicle model plate.jpg

S/n 3844536696:

Vehicle model plate: C-8A-MACH-ZL-2
Additional Vehicle model plate: HU441-M-MACH-ZL-1
C8A sn 3844536696 vehilce model plate 1.jpeg C8A sn 3844536696 vehilce model plate 2.jpeg

Another HUM I have viewed has the same Vehicle model plates as s/n 3844536696.

[M.Morren]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

S/n 3844536696:

Vehicle model plate: C-8A-MACH-ZL-2
Additional Vehicle model plate: HU441-M-MACH-ZL-1

Another HUM I have viewed has the same Vehicle model plates as s/n 3844536696.

Had the other HUM also a 'C' stamped on the 'M' of the Chrysler plate? 3844515289 and 3844536696 do, and it would be interesting to know if the other ones have this too.

2020-08-24 22_09_53-Photos.jpg 2020-08-24 22_10_58-Photos.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by M.Morren

a 'C' stamped on the 'M' of the Chrysler plate?

Hi Marty,

Can you show me a picture? I am not sure what you mean?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Chassis model | Cab Model | Chassis serial | Engine serial | Order no | Date of mfg | Vehicle model | Body Model | Body serial | Chrysler Serial-no | WD census no. | Source
C8A | 13 | 3844536671 | FR3969368 | LV.2611 | MAY 11/44 | ... |... |... |... |... | http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...671#post129049 (Mark Coombs, USA)

Here's a picture from Wheels & Tracks magazine of Mark Coombs' C8A Mach ZL-2:

IMG_1158 (2).jpg

Originally Posted by Brian Gough

Phil,

Would you be thinking of Mark Coombs of San Diego? He has a Mach ZL-2, serial 3844536671, built May 11/44 on contract LV2611. It was pictured in W&T 44, p. 45 - actually Bart Vanderveen credited you for first reporting on it.

Mark came to Oshawa a few years ago and saw all the HUPs here that we could find to show him. I too have no direct contact with him recently and I don't think he is around on this Forum.

Brian

[M.Morren]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Couple of pictures of a (new to me) C8A HUM in the Piana Delle Orme Museum in Italy.

Courtesy of Pierre-Olivier Buan.

Attachment 115657 Attachment 115658

Attachment 115659 Attachment 115660

Reached out to the museum and got some info on this ZL. I will add it to the list (I am hoping that they have the body tags too. Still waiting on a reply on that):

2020-09-28 20_55_58-20200925_085056.jpg ‎- Photos.jpg

Note the 'C' stamped on this plate as well. My guess is that this was done on all Chrysler plates.

2020-09-28 20_55_49-20200925_085113.jpg ‎- Photos.jpg


Here the updated list (I edited the URL's so the list is a bit easier to read, but we really need HTML on here so we can get some proper tables )

Chassis model | Cab Model | Chassis serial | Engine serial | Order no | Date of mfg | Vehicle model | Body Model | Body serial | Chrysler Serial-no | WD census no. | Source
C8A | 13 | 3844515289 | FR3918642 | LV.1697 | AUG. 12/43 | C.HU-441-M-PERS-1; 2nd plate: HU441-M-MACH-ZL-1 | 1C1 | 3924 | MACH-ZL-1-068 | ... | MLU thread: 14560 (Marty Morren, NL)
C8A | 13 | ... | ... | ... | ... | ... | ... | ... | ... | CZ4210145 | Flickr
C8A | 13 | 3844536668 | FR3969158 | LV.2611 | MAY 11/44 | ... | ... | ... | ... | ... | MLU post: 96568
C8A | 13 | 3844536670 | FR3969311 | LV.2611 | MAY 11/44 |C-8A-MACH-ZL-2 | ... | ... | ... | ... | MLU post: 174430 (Pieter Bergman, NL)
C8A | 13 | 3844536671 | FR3969368 | LV.2611 | MAY 11/44 | ... | ... | ... | ... | ... | MLU post: 129049 (Mark Coombs, USA)
C8A | 13 | 3844536682 | ... | LV.2611 | MAY 12/44 | C-8A-MACH-ZL-2; 2nd plate: HU441-M-MACH-ZL-1 | ... | ... | ... | CZ425579 | MLU post: 271791 (Museo Piana Delle Orme, Italy)
C8A | 13 | 3844536688 | FR3969099 | LV.2611 | MAY 12/44 | ... | ... | ... | ... | ... | MLU post: 9656
C8A | 13 | 3844536691 | FR3968926 | LV.2611 | MAY 15/44 | [plate missing] |1C1 | 6443 | ... | ... | MLU thread: 10033 (ex-Shayne McGuire, CDN - current location u/k)
C8A | 13 | 3844536696 | FR3969103 | LV.2611 | MAY 15/44 | C-8A-MACH-ZL-2; 2nd plate: HU441-M-MACH-ZL-1 | 1C1 | 6448 | MACH-ZL-1-087 | ... | MLU thread: 2179 (John Corden, UK)

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Great info, Marty!



PS: point taken about the HTML

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by david moore

From the list of vehicles of HQ 1st Can Army previously posted on this forum, I have kept a list of "HUP's" which may or may not include HUM's - it does include HUW's and HUA's - the relevant number ranges are as follows:
4213848 - 4214200
4228061 - 4229581
4236644 - 4236729

The total ranges may have been greater than this of course.

Here’s another C8A census number Z-4214033 which fits the first range you quoted.

5E21CECE-C3C5-4351-BF2C-3F4C2B568F96.jpg

Caption: “Canadian Broadcasting Corporation vehicle at Ortona, Italy, december 1943“ - this is Matthew Halton with his HUP. Phil Waterman knows more about him.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

I don't think the contract had anything to do with the C. I think it had more to do with on whose charge it was.

In Italy sometimes the C was omitted on Canadian vehicles to confuse Germans into thinking they might be British.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

I'll do a proper write up someday of what I have found about this subject.

We need to differentiate between the supply side (as in: which vehicle types were delivered to which countries under which contracts) and the demand side (which vehicle types were used by which Army).

For now I'll leave it with a quote from Drive to Victory:

Instructions issued during the war, on several occasions, were very specific on the use of census numbers. As Canada rented many vehicles from the British, especially in the first 18 months of the war although it remained a practice throughout the war, units were advised not to add the 'C' prefix to these rented vehilces. This clearly shows the Canadian prefix denoted true ownership and not simply use.

Hence my remark about the HUP shown above. It cleary is in use with the Canadian Army (unit markings, date & location), but it has a British War Department number (it has no "C"). Hence it was built under a contract from the British War Department and then loaned to the Canadian Army - the preceding "C" was not added as per the instructions. Of course its ownership could have been transferred to the Canadian Army, they would have then been allowed to add the "C" - in this case they may not have had the time or inclination to do so.

In any case I'll bet you that HUP had a data plate with a contract number starting with "S/M".

Question: could someone with a copy of C8A-04 Illustrated Spare Parts Manual for the C8A check the order numbers referenced in there, please?
I read that the June 1945 version of C8A-04 lists 41 contracts, both British S/M and Canadian CDLV (or LV).

[Alex van de Wetering]

Hanno,

This is definately a interesting subject to dive into a little more, as I think there is a discrepancy between the actual regulations and the reality. Your suggestion of the C8A Manual would be a nice start.

I think the "C" prefix only works one way....if a vehicle has a "C" you can be sure it's a Canadian contract or Canadian owned vehicle (As Clive wrote in Drive to Victory). But, if it doesn't have the "C" you can't be sure if it's a Canadian or British contract (or owned) vehicle.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Question: could someone with a copy of C8A-04 Illustrated Spare Parts Manual for the C8A check the order numbers referenced in there, please?
I read that the June 1945 version of C8A-04 lists 41 contracts, both British S/M and Canadian CDLV (or LV).

Thank you Mr Hupmeister!

Interesting to see the list of British SPLY/MECH (S/M) orders, and the list of miscellaneous orders for Canada, New Zealand, China and France. The last two were a surprise to me.

20210202_074452.jpg