Pickaxe dimensions

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Who knows the dimensions of the pick head and its helve, as used on CMPs?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

PS: From the tool packing list one can see only one pickaxe head + helve were issued per five vehicles:

Source: ORIGINAL CMP Ford Tool Packing List

[Eric B]

Hello Hanno

Mine are 22 3/4 for the pickaxe head and 3 ft for the Helve. These are DND issued and dated 1941. I am sure they are the same size as the ones on the vehicles.

Thanks
Eric

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Eric B

Mine are 22 3/4 for the pickaxe head and 3 ft for the Helve. These are DND issued and dated 1941. I am sure they are the same size as the ones on the vehicles.

Hello Eric,

Thnaks for posting the dimensions.

Arie Hamer measured up the one on his HUP and confirmed the head is 58 cm. long. Good to know the helve is 91.5 cm.

[Lynn Eades]

Hanno, the two shown in your two photos are (obviously) different. The first is an American type, while the second is British (as found on carriers). The American pick heads come in different lengths (not sure about military ones), and I wonder if that is why the one on the back of the CMP is not sitting its end against the rub plate.
Interestingly I have a pick mount that takes (what I assume to be?) an American pick, but has a BSF thread on the stud.
The shorter (lower) one is from a Canadian U.C.
The longer (higher) one , I'd like to know its original application?
The Australian carrier used the American pick, but used Unified thread forms (plus BA for small stuff) So, i don't think its from there.

Btw, with the British helves, the early ones had a steel ring at the hand end (WWI) the later ones were plain. These were used through WWI and WWII.

[Lynn Eades]

Further: I've had a minor epiphany. I believe this was made to fit the carrier as well (same mounting) Maybe it was to do with supply of picks? I will be watching for carrier pictures with the U.S style pick from now on.
I had assumed that this was from An Australian pattern carrier, until I checked the thread of the stud.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Thanks Lynn,

I obviously have a lot to learn about pickaxes. I raised the dimension question as a friend of mine bought a few dozen and I am trying to help him sort them out. Obviously there are many detail differences because these are forged.

Bert found they are dimensionally different, apparently because the type used on vehicles was larger than the type carried by Infantry.

Most are marked with the British Broad Arrow, a date and manufacturer name. Bert thinks the helves may be US ones.

If anyone can point out the differences between US, British, Canadian, Australian and other? ones, we can add this the collective font of knowledge here on MLU Forum.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Pickaxes from a Czech collector. Obviously, they are not all the exact same length. Due to (hand) forging by different manufacturers, or because they had a different application? Length is 55, 59 and 60 cm.

Radek checked and all three fit the bracket on his Austin truck.

[Lynn Eades]

Yes Hanno. The British style has a steel wrap that the pick head sits on. The handles you show would be U.S style.
There is a British miners pick in the same style, but it is substantially smaller. It is about half way between the Vehicle one and the infantry one that has the webb cover and the mine thingy on some handles. I'm not very knowledgeable on them either.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

The British style has a steel wrap that the pick head sits on. The handles you show would be U.S style.

But the heading tool layout photo shows a plain wooden helve WITHOUT steel reinforcements?

Do you mean to say Canada used the U.S. style and not British?

In a way that would make sense, as the packing list states the material remains with the vehicle when delivered to customer. So the tools were supplied ex-works, and were thus sourced in North America, correct?

Anyway, let's keep digging

[rob love]

I have always differentiated the British pick from the US pick by the extra shank on the pick axe head for the US one, vs the no shank on the British one. As Lynn mentions, the British one has the metal reinforced handle at the head, and a ring on the bottom. The US handle is all wood and larger diameter.

I have found that pretty much any Canadian made vehicle that has a brackets for the pick axe, used the British pattern of pick axe head and handle. I had not noticed before that the pick axe in the photo of the cmp tool layout is a US pattern version.

A surplus store in Calgary Alberta had hundreds of the WW2 Cdn pick axe heads and dozens of the handles, all to the British pattern.

In the 1950s, the Canadian military went to the M-series vehicles (aside from the Centurion, the Ferret, and the Triumph Motorcycle) and the US pattern pick became the norm. When I was still in the service, you would get the odd WW2 Cdn pick axe head mixed in with the US ones when ordered from supply.

[Michael R.]

Originally Posted by rob love

I have always differentiated the British pick from the US pick by the extra shank on the pick axe head for the US one, vs the no shank on the British one. As Lynn mentions, the British one has the metal reinforced handle at the head, and a ring on the bottom. The US handle is all wood and larger diameter...

Paraphrased ...

The ferrule may be found marked ‘UNIVERSAL 2’ on one side.
The tool image layouts found in the Ford Canada universal carrier parts manuals, FUC-02, FUC-03 and FWC-02 show a pick helve with ferrule.

(British part numbers in FUC-03)

[David Dunlop]

Would the British Master Reference Manual list detailed specifications for JA 0072 and JA 0073?

David

[motto]

The nomenclature being used confuses me. In Australia the implement being discussed is known as a pick. I have never heard it referred to as a pickaxe. No part of it is an axe. It has a chisel at one end and a spike the other.
The Americans seem to have settled on the pick mattock as their standard on board digging implement. That is what their vehicle mountings and standard U.S. pioneer rack were designed to take. They are not readily come by in Australia. I picked one up (no pun intended) in the Northern Territory where the Americans were involved in an exercise some years ago and it has been very handy around the property. I have found it to be a more useful tool than a pick.
Just as an aside, when we were staying on South Sea Common Portsmouth prior to crossing over to Normandy in 1984 there were a couple of reenactors dressed as MPs on gate duty who were carrying white painted pick handles.
I said to them I hoped the handles were balsa wood. The response was"they're not balsa, they're bloody good hickory". They took the job seriously.

David

[David Herbert]

Motto,
You are quite right that the term 'pickaxe' is misleading but certainly in the UK it is the normal general term for anything that even vaguely resembles a pick. Similarly I am used to the term 'mattock' being used to describe the American standard tool that has a spike at one end and a digging blade at the other.

This is like the use of 'crow bar' to describe any long bar used for levering things despite all the variants having correct specific names.

David

[Alex van de Wetering]

Hanno,

Excellent idea to open a thread on the Pick.....somehow we do have some good info on the Canadian shovel on the forum, but info on the pick was still limited.

I would also like to learn more about the Canadian pick and helve as used on CMP's, with a vision of finding a proper one for my C8.

Attached is a picture from Clive's factory photo's CD; this also shows the smooth wooden handle on a C8A.

Also note that there are multiple pictures of tool layouts (Clives CD has 3), one for each type of CMP so it seems.....but I guess they were all done in one picture session, as most tools are the very same ones, while only some items differ.

[Preston Isaac]

Seeing all the info on pickaxes, I wonder if anyone can identify this helve variation.
It seems a standard British pattern metal ferule at the bottom, stamped No 2.
The wooden helve has "51" in red paint.
The odd bit is the metal cap at the top of the helve, it is too wide for any British pattern pickaxe head to fit over it.

Attachment 115232

Attachment 115233

Attachment 115234

[Lynn Eades]

If you can't put the pick head over it, then it has been re- purposed, as some kind of rammer? Interesting.

[B. Harris]

For Further Deliberation:
The Canadian heads (Pickaxe), the only one I have seen has been manufactured by Welland Vane Ltd.
They were located in St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada.

Markings are typical..... W.V. and the date.
Also is 4 1/2 which is the weight of the head.
They will fit MKII and T16 Carrier mounting head, confirmed. Unsure of MKI fitment.

I have a head for sale on the exchange threads.

Cheers,
Harris

[Lynn Eades]

And here, just to add to the menagerie.
The smaller "miners" pick Made in Sheffield, Marked 2 1/8 (lb?) on the head and "universal on the steel of the helve. No date that I could see.
Back grounded by a standard helve to show size

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Thanks all, good info coming out of the woodwork ;-)

Here is a photo of an AEC armoured demolition vehicle, showing the pioneer tools (is that the British terminology?) neatly stowed on the rear:
shovel, pick, helve (note that it doesn not have steel bands!) and crowbar.



The vehicle in the photo is from contract T9291 covering Lorry 3ton Armd Personnel and Armd Demolition, 100 vehicles between the two types.

[Lynn Eades]

Hanno, The (later)WWII handle did not have the band at the grip end. The pick head end will have the steel sleeve, to go with the head shown. (at least, I've never seen one that didn't) The logic is that the long hole in the American one stabilizes the handle in the head, whereas the smaller and shorter hole requires the steel sleeve to stabilize the head on the handle. If the photo was bigger I think you'd be able to see the sleeve.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by rob love

I have found that pretty much any Canadian made vehicle that has a brackets for the pick axe, used the British pattern of pick axe head and handle. I had not noticed before that the pick axe in the photo of the cmp tool layout is a US pattern version.

HUPs all seem to have the US type?

Pictures shared by Marty Morren

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Also note that there are multiple pictures of tool layouts (Clives CD has 3), one for each type of CMP so it seems.....but I guess they were all done in one picture session, as most tools are the very same ones, while only some items differ.

New Zealand transport kit inspection, Egypt, 1941.

"US" pick?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by rob love

I have always differentiated the British pick from the US pick by the extra shank on the pick axe head for the US one, vs the no shank on the British one. As Lynn mentions, the British one has the metal reinforced handle at the head, and a ring on the bottom. The US handle is all wood and larger diameter.

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Hanno, The (later)WWII handle did not have the band at the grip end. The pick head end will have the steel sleeve, to go with the head shown. (at least, I've never seen one that didn't) The logic is that the long hole in the American one stabilizes the handle in the head, whereas the smaller and shorter hole requires the steel sleeve to stabilize the head on the handle.

I've been wondering about the what you meant with the "extra shank on the US one vs. the no shank on the British one". Remember I am not a native English speaker.

Doing a picture search combined with Lynn's remark about the "long hole" I think I now have a grip on what the US pick looks like.

Note: the Oxford Dictionary of English states that both "pick" and "pickaxe" have the same meaning, that being a tool with a long handle at right angles to a curved iron or steel bar with a point at one end and a chisel or point at the other, used for breaking up hard ground or rock.

[David Herbert]

In my experience all civilian British picks look exactly like the one in the above post #25. It is only British military picks that have the metal reinforcement at the business end of the handle. I have always assumed that this was because they were stowed separated and repeatedly separating the civilian type would cause wear to the wood. The Americans presumably just went with standard civilian tools. As usual Canada got caught in the middle !

David

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Good picture of a British pick and helve made in 1943 by Hardypick Limited, Sheffield (part of the kit of a Daimler Dingo in the USA).

It clearly shows the shank is about half as high (deep) as on the US one, therefore the British helve has a metal reinforcement for stability of the pick head.

Thus far, I have only seen the US type fitted on / supplied with CMP trucks.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Good picture of a British pick and helve made in 1943 by Hardypick Limited, Sheffield (part of the kit of a Daimler Dingo in the USA).

It clearly shows the shank is about half as high (deep) as on the US one, therefore the British helve has a metal reinforcement for stability of the pick head.

What do period British civilian picks look like? Do they also have the narrow shank and metal reinforced helve? Or is that unique to army picks?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

What do period British civilian picks look like? Do they also have the narrow shank and metal reinforced helve? Or is that unique to army picks?

See David's earlier reply:

Originally Posted by David Herbert

In my experience all civilian British picks look exactly like the one in the above post #25. It is only British military picks that have the metal reinforcement at the business end of the handle. I have always assumed that this was because they were stowed separated and repeatedly separating the civilian type would cause wear to the wood. The Americans presumably just went with standard civilian tools. As usual Canada got caught in the middle !

[rob love]

I was looking at a copy of the "factory photos" CD that Clive Law sent me, and ran across the photo with the tool layout. With the excellent resolution of the photos, I was able to enlarge the photo to come up with the manufacturer's name "hercules". The same logo can be seen on the HUP photo Alex posted with the pick axe handle stowed.



I did find some Hercules tools listed on the net, but they seem to have migrated over to fiberglass handles now. I guess the challenge to the true CMP nuts will be to find vintage Hercules handles to stow on their vehicles.


When I enlarge the photo of the tool layout, you can also read the nomenclature on the shovel. It is not the manufacturer but rather a label for GM's stock room.