19 set in MG carrier ( Aust)

[Mike Kelly]

Does anyone have or know where to find the following drawing detailing the fitment of the 19 set to the Carriers M.G. Aust. 2 or 2A ?

Drawing A.D.D. (W) 22

[Mike Cecil]

Hi Mike,

As far as I know, all the Army Design Directorate (ADD) drawings dating from the Second World War were held by the Land Engineering Agency or whatever they call it these days (it has changed names and departments quite a few times!) at Maribyrnong, and were disposed of during one of the many re-organisations.

I managed to look at a few surviving carrier drawings in the late '80s, but the personnel involved then were disinterested to the point of being, well, 'difficult', and obtaining any copies was not permitted.

I suspect the drawings you are after no longer exist.

Mike

[David Dunlop]

Mike and Mike.

I am not at all sure how the ‘V.A.O.S.’ System worked during the War so am tossing this out there rather blindly.

If the A.D.D. Section designed something new, would they simply advise the authority in charge of the VAOS and get a number issued, or would copies of the drawings have to be submitted for approval to avoid duplications?

I guess what I am wondering is if copies of these drawings could exist elsewhere in some long forgotten V.A.O.S. archive?



David

[Mike Kelly]

I guess it was a long shot query but it sounds like another case of being too late . The shredder has done the deed !

I have a job that involves installing a WS19 in a M.G.carrier Aust. 2A.

Any pics or relevant information would be appreciated. We do know the location of the two control boxes within the hull , but not their type , there were many types of control boxes issued .

We need: dog bone 6 pin connector , mic/headphone harness, 12 pin plugs, and two 6 pin sockets.

The set itself is a rare AWA WS 19 (Aust.) which is a ideal match for the
Aust. carrier.

My own collection of 19 set equipment , mostly went to QLD many years ago , to a chap who at the time ,restored Grant tanks.

[Mike Cecil]

Hi David,

The Vocabulary of Army Ordnance Stores (VAOS) was the classification of, and numbering of, stores for inventory and requisitioning purposes once they were approved for use and manufactured with that number stenciled or stamped in place.

The process, from what I understand, was that Army issued a requirement, MGO Design Division then came up with the solution, after experimentation and trials, then the ADD would produce a set of final drawings for manufacture. These would include specifications of where and how to apply the VAOS number for ID purposes.

The Ministry of Munitions was then issued with an order by Army, such as "500 XYZ according to drawings ADD xxx". The Ministry of Munitions, through the Board of Area Management (BAM) in each state, issued manufacturing orders to industry, such as an order to a Major Coordinating Contractor in the case of larger munitions items, or direct to small manufacturers where an item could be manufactured by a single company.

The manufacturer then produced the item and lodged it for Army Inspection Branch to approve and accept it for service use. Once it passed inspection, it was then delivered to an Ordnance Store for issue to units through the supply chain.

As far as the user was concerned, only the VAOS number was relevant, as that was what was used for requisitioning.

So there were several sets or copies of drawings required for each item ordered, which were then disseminated through the ordering and manufacturing system at national, state BAM, and company level, but I've never been able to find any surviving drawings - they seem to have been disposed of when no longer required. The Ministry of Munitions was swallowed up post-war, in various govt re-organisations. Maybe there are drawings stuck away in the National Archives somewhere, but in most instances, it appears they were the victim of archival 'selection' by either the originating agency, or the archives themselves.

In instances where an item was still an in-service requirement, the 'master' drawings were retained by Army in the long term. I can remember my father's company receiving an order for outboard motor refueling funnels during the 1970s, with the drawings dated in the 1930s! Same with 1 pint oil cans - the drawings dated from the 1930s, but with revisions noted.

Hope that makes some sense.

Mike

[David Dunlop]

It does, Mike.

Thank you.

David

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

I have a job that involves installing a WS19 in a M.G.carrier Aust. 2A.

Any pics or relevant information would be appreciated. We do know the location of the two control boxes within the hull , but not their type , there were many types of control boxes issued .

Control Unit No.1 or 1A for the front (Commander/Gunner and Driver)
Control Unit No.2 by the set for the Wireless Operator.

Best regards,
Chris.

[Mike Kelly]

The AWA set seen here has been modified into a Mk 3 configuration with 12 pin sockets . The switch knobs are typically AWA in style

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/Sear....aspx?B=649466

would be nice to read the design document but it costs !

[Mike Kelly]

Been searching through my junk.

I found a 6 pin dogbone lead but unfortunately it's the special lead for the 19 set Linear Amp , it would be shame to remove the little drop lead from it thus rendering it useless for a Amp. I need a normal standard dogbone lead.

I think I still have a box of 19 set leads under the house , salvaged from the Grant tanks at Uptons Corowa many years ago. But maybe not. Plumbs , the scrappy at Wodonga, they had a huge pile of 19 set leads but that was a long time ago, we called in during one of the early Corowa events., I recall they had the 44 gallon drum full of the Mic. No.3 with the white 90 degree rubber mouthpiece.

[Mike Kelly]

Originally Posted by Chris Suslowicz

Control Unit No.1 or 1A for the front (Commander/Gunner and Driver)
Control Unit No.2 by the set for the Wireless Operator.

Best regards,
Chris.

Ah good, that helps .

[Mike Kelly]

http://ds212j-hs.synology.me/mb15896...20details.html

I see a WS62 in there somewhere

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

http://ds212j-hs.synology.me/mb15896...20details.html

I see a WS62 in there somewhere

Yes indeed! I have most of the installation hardware for that setup (apart from a Jeep or trailer to put it in). The aerial mounting is the WS19 'B' set type (with four holes) plus an adapter plate to 6-hole mounting for an Aerial Base No.10.

Some of the other installations in the photographs are interesting, too. The one with the aerial base sticking out from the side of the rear tub uses a clamp-on mounting and the WS19 is on Carrier No.25 (with a waterproof cover over it) so that setup is demountable for use as a ground station.

Chris.

[Mike Kelly]

I am wondering if the Aust. M.G. Carrier setup has the driver using a Tannoy style carbon insert Mic. or the normal No. 7 moving coil Mic ?

I hope the Aust. Carrier setup has the Tannoy style Mic. because I have one !

The little information I can find on the fitting of wireless sets in the Aust. Carriers, seems to be related to the WS11 setup, I cannot find anything specific on the WS19 setup but there definitely was such a setup.

[Mike Kelly]

Originally Posted by Chris Suslowicz

Yes indeed! I have most of the installation hardware for that setup (apart from a Jeep or trailer to put it in). The aerial mounting is the WS19 'B' set type (with four holes) plus an adapter plate to 6-hole mounting for an Aerial Base No.10.

Some of the other installations in the photographs are interesting, too. The one with the aerial base sticking out from the side of the rear tub uses a clamp-on mounting and the WS19 is on Carrier No.25 (with a waterproof cover over it) so that setup is demountable for use as a ground station.

Chris.

The Jeep pic with the unhappy looking German officer, (the chaps in the background think the whole scene is funny). What is the device mounted on the Jeep cowl ?

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

I am wondering if the Aust. M.G. Carrier setup has the driver using a Tannoy style carbon insert Mic. or the normal No. 7 moving coil Mic ?

I hope the Aust. Carrier setup has the Tannoy style Mic. because I have one !

Sadly, no. The Headset & Microphone assembly No.2 with the Tannoy microphone is specifically for use in AFVs (mainly early tanks) for intercom (only) using Junction Distribution No.1 or No.2. This was necessary as there were not enough slip-rings in the rotary base junction (providing connections for turret wiring) to allow the standard intercom to be used. (The WS19 was mounted in the turret bustle and they could only scrape up two connections to the tank hull.) The intercom got 12V and ground from the hull wiring and the two circuits through the rotary base were Speech (output of the intercom amplifier) and Signal (input to the commander's headset for the buzzer call operated by the button on JD1 (JD2 did not have the call button or buzzer)).

The Tannoy microphone contains a double-button carbon insert which drove a centre-tapped transformer, the output side of which connected to ground and Speech. The Speech & Signal lines went into the rotary base junction, from there they appeared in the WS19 power junction box, and a fully-wired 6-way cable (+12 heaters, +12 Dynamotor, -12 Heaters, -12 Dynamotor, Speech, Signal) connected to the supply unit. Speech, Signal and the +12 Heaters (along with HT1 and HT2 and Ground) were passed through the dogbone connector into the set, and Speech + Signal went straight through to the 12-way harness connector for the control units (along with a 12V feed for the "A set unattended" warning light.

The 6-way dogbone was also fully populated, so when they needed relay control (for twin dynamotor or the Canadian vibrator+dynamotor supply units) they had to fit a 12-way connector for power input to the set, or bodge the existing 6-pin one (lifting the ground connection on Pin 1 and using that for the relay line and the braided screen for the ground connection) and using a 12pin - 6pin dogbone to feed the modified set.

Best regards,
Chris.

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

http://ds212j-hs.synology.me/mb15896...20details.html

I see a WS62 in there somewhere

Actually, I'd better post what I emailed to the owner about the photographs:

-----------------------------------------------------

Birc04 p.63 shows a Wireless Set No.19 on Carrier No.25 (with waterproof cover in place) as a demountable station. The aerial base is fitted to a mounting that clamps on to the Jeep 'tub' side.
Aerial Base No.8 is fitted and the 'original' design of 'F' rods (because of the rubber tubing slipped over the joint to stop the top section falling out). Underneath the set carrier will be a wooden board with a pair of clamps that hold the carrier (the same clamps as are fitted to radio tables in wireless trucks for use with Carrier No.3 or 23).

Birc04 p.122 has an Aerial Base No.10 Mk.2 (I think) permanently bolted to the left wing with a feeder cable clamped to the top of the base. The aerial at the rear of the vehicle looks like it is part of the Wireless Set No.18 (or 68) visible behind the spare wheel.

Birc04 p.124 - It's a WS19, the WS22 did not use a variometer. (The variometer is mounted on top of the power supply unit.)

Birc04 p.148 - Another WS19, on either Carrier No.1 or No.25. Again, using the clamp-on aerial base No.10. Someone has broken the aerial feeder on the rear of the variometer and connected the feeder cable to the internal terminal (that feeder plate was very fragile).

Birc04 p.180 - Yes, WS19HP.

Birc04 p.185 - Wireless Set 19 HP (using RF Amplifier No.2 Mk.3 because it has the square air filter on the rear of the case). Aerial Tuning Inductance No.1 (with a ceramic insulator on the rear) is another clue.

Birc04 p.216 - not sure what the set is, it might be a Canadian WS52 but the batteries are in the trailer behind the Jeep!

Ware96 p.51 - That's a Wireless Set No.62, possibly in Carrier No.65. The aerial base is fitted to the mounting for the WS19 'B' set aerial, using an adapter plate to convert the 4 holes (for Base No.9 Mounting No.1) to the 6 holes for Base No.10. The set (and battery) carrier was used for the vehicle, sledge and animal pack station.

-----------------------------------------------------

That was an interesting set of different Jeep installations.

(If anyone needs a closer look at the individual bits I think I've got most of them - including most of the WS62 vehicle or trailer installation hardware and can probably arrange photographs eventually.)

Chris.

[Mike Kelly]

All good . Chris does have an eye for detail.

[Mike Kelly]

A few pics

The meter appears to be made by VANE: founded in Sydney N.S.W. 1940, VANE made many types of automotive test equipment over the years. https://www.cool386.com/vane/vane.html

[Mike Kelly]

A history of AWA and AWV, AWV was the valve manufacturing subsidiary of AWA.

https://www.radiomuseum.org/dsp_hers...mpany_id=18673

https://sites.google.com/site/transi...history-of-awv

[Mike Kelly]

Early example of a AWA manufactured Valve. 1920s ? With only four pins: Would this be a directly heated Triode for a battery set ?

[Mike Kelly]

Euan will be happy: I have managed to locate a original manual for his W.S. 19 (Aust.) Dated 1943, the publication was bought by a friend VK3CYD (thanks Clem) in 1975 for $2.

Still looking for control boxes