Provincial plates for MVs

[Wayne Hingley]

Im not sure of the year stamped on the first plate (difficult to read because of the handhold bar), but it is a NB provincial plate on this M37. Ed has posted a magnified image here: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...&postcount=130

Also an RCAF M37 with 1959 British Columbia plate.

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi Wayne

Very nice. Thank you for that link. The license plate portion of that discussion was buried in your vehicle restoration thread and as I was apparently too rude to even see it, a belated well-done to you.

I guess what caught my attention was the word TANK and that made me wonder if there were other types of vehicle. I've seen been shown another exactly as mine above (same prefix, different #) and did see pictures online of an "I" prefix 1960 NB plate (same colours) to a MOTORCYCLE. Is it a Military plate and if so, were there other "Types", I wonder. I'm going to go through a few photo archives this weekend.

regards
Darrell

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi

I had a look through some photo archives for more pics license plates with the vehicle type on them but no luck.

Most were hard to see or just a provincial plate with no Type on them.

Found a 1962 NB plate on a Ferret (54-82600) but sadly, it doesn't say "Scout Car" at the bottom!!

regards
Darrell

[Ed Storey]

How about this Manitoba plated M38CDN?

Photo 1 M38 Jeep Ambulance copy.jpg

[Robin Craig]

Darrell, what the heck is that ironmongery on the rear of that Ferret and do you have an applicable CFTO or equivalent for it and what leads you to believe the CFR is for that plate?

[Colin Alford]

Darrell,

I found your plate, and questions interesting and conducted a bunch of image searches in an attempt to gather information.

The image searches for provincial plates on Canadian military vehicles is certainly complicated due to the varying provincial requirements of both front and rear plates, or only rear plates, and whether the image was taken from an appropriate angle to capture the plate (if fitted).

I feel that there is sufficient photographic evidence to suggest that most provinces likely required provincial plates on military wheeled vehicles.

The question of provincial plates on tanks (and potentially other tracked vehicles), seems to be dependent upon the province.

A good resource for period images of Canadian tanks is Jason Ginn’s Canadianarmsandarmour.ca website: Canadian Arms and Armour – An online resource for the study and preservation of Canada's fighting vehicles and equipment

In the case of Ontario, I have found images of Carden-Lloyd tankettes, Vickers Mk VIb light tanks, and potentially two Valentines with provincial plates (one Valentine image is definitely a 1942 Ontario Plate). The majority of Valentine images do not show any plates, and I have not noted any images of plates on the M1917 (6 Tonne) Light Tanks, Rams, M4A1 Grizzlies, M4A2E8, M24, M5A1, or Centurion. Therefore, given the images that I have found, it seems that the last Ontario plate for a tank was issued in 1942. There was a common feature of the observed plates in that they all end in an “F” suffix.

In the case of Quebec, there are 2 images in “The Royal Canadian Armoured Corps, An Illustrated History” that show Quebec plates on a Ferret, a jeep, and possibly a Staghound (out of focus). The Ferret and Jeep plates have a “G” prefix possibly indicating a unique numbering system for military vehicles. I have not noted any images of Quebec provincial plates on tanks.

It seems that in the post-war years the greatest prevalence of images of provincial plates on tanks are from BC, Manitoba, and Saskatchewan. Due to the limited quantity, and quality, of the images, I cannot determine any pattern to the numbering system to determine if there was distinct set of plates for military vehicles.

With regards to New Brunswick, I have not found any images of provincial plates on tanks (most 1960s images (less the fire trucks mentioned below) seem to indicate that NB provincial plates were only on the rear of military wheeled vehicles, and most of the tank images are from the front or side so the plates may have been present on tanks, but not captured in the available imagery.

This website gives a good indication of the NB standard civilian passenger plates from the era (but does not go into detail about any period special plates): Vehicle registration plates of New Brunswick - Wikipedia

A google image search for “New Brunswick License Plate 1960” reveals a surprising variety of different styles of plates. I’ve noted Municipal Plates, Motorcycle plates, ones with C, DS, FS, and GS prefixes, as well as ones with an X suffix which expired on 30 June. This seems to indicate that the authorities were comfortable with creating a large variety of different plates for different classes of vehicles.

I found images of another 1960 NB Tank plate very similar to yours: 1960 New Brunswick Tank License Plate | HiBid Auctions

I have only noted 3 images of NB civilian plates on military vehicles where the numbers are somewhat legible. Those 3 images are the Line Truck cited by Wayne, your Ferret image, and an image at the Firehall in Gagetown.

The LAC link for the Line Truck image is: http://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.redire...35426&lang=eng

The LAC link for the Gagetown Firehall is: http://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.redire...34345&lang=eng

The Line Truck (1963) definitely has a DS prefix. The Ferret (1962) definitely has an S as the second letter of the prefix, and the Firehall image (date unknown but likely earlier than 1962 given the colour of the plates) is blurry, but I interpret those plates to have a 2-letter prefix which is in a smaller font than the numbers. With this analysis, it would appear that your Tank plate has a different numbering system than the known images of NB plates on other military vehicles.

A related question came to mind: How many military tanks would likely have been in NB during 1960? I do not have a firm grasp on the history of Gagetown and what Regular or Reserve Armoured units in NB were equipped with during the time period, but I do note that the Armour School, as part of the Combat Arms School (later CTC) did not move to Gagetown from Borden until 1970. With the other 1960 Tank plate numbered 232, and your plate numbered 244, these seem like high numbers for Canadian military tanks to have likely been in NB during 1960. (While both plates have some rust, I do not notice any marks which would indicate that either plate was bolted to a vehicle, therefore I assume that both plates were unused.)

I have also attempted to consider whether these plates might have been intended for some sort of civilian tank (eg: a fuel or water truck or trailer). Given the wide variety of different types of 1960 NB plates, these plates could potentially have been intended for some civilian “tank” application.

Given the modern trend of updating a plate’s validity with yearly stickers, the period practice of issuing new plates every year seems incredibly wasteful. With NB apparently producing a wide variety of plates in 1960 for very specific purposes, it seems that unless they had accurate predictions of their requirements, there was potential for further waste due to overproduction of the various types of plate. With these Tank plates appearing (to me through a computer screen) to be unused would seem to support the notion of overproduction which then led to waste.

If these Tank plates were intended for military use, I suspect that it was during a very short period of time. With the known images of military vehicles with NB plates lacking a specific marking to denote the type of vehicle, I suspect that in most cases military vehicles were issued a specific series of plates (possibly with a DS prefix).

Another point that I think is worth mentioning is that I have not seen any images of any license plates on Centurion or Leopard. Even after the adoption of the CFR plates, Canada has seemed content with painted CFRs on tanks (but plates on most other armour). Some of this lack of evidence (prior to the adoption of CFR plates) might be attributable to the concentration of tanks in Reg F units (once the Shermans were withdrawn from the Reserve units) which may have reduced the tanks operating in provinces that required license plates.

All of the above is based on the limited pictorial evidence that I have been able to access, which notably has not included any 1960s era images taken from the rear of tanks operating in NB.

Colin

[Colin Alford]

Some wartime images from Borden showing provincial plates. All 4 of these images are from the Ontario Archives.

Links: https://aims.archives.gov.on.ca/SCRI...2Nq/1/5/49010?

https://aims.archives.gov.on.ca/SCRI...NE/1/18/49023?

https://aims.archives.gov.on.ca/SCRI...JF/1/56/49965?

https://aims.archives.gov.on.ca/SCRI...2NQ/1/4/48934?

[Darrell Zinck]

Originally Posted by Robin Craig

Darrell, what the heck is that ironmongery on the rear of that Ferret and do you have an applicable CFTO or equivalent for it and what leads you to believe the CFR is for that plate?

Hi Robin

Late reply but the "ironmongery" is a mount for a Tote Goat:

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3135

RE the Ferret CFR, I have another pic of that same vehicle that shows the # stenciled on the hull, is all.

regards
Darrell