U.S. Willys M-38A1 in Canadian Service?

[Clint Tauber]

A couple of years back, I bought a 1953 M-38A1 on KiJiJi, thinking it was the typical Ford M-38A1CDN. I was not surprised that the papers identified it as a "Willys", because that was common. I WAS a bit surprised when the jeep arrived on the barge, and the data plate said Willys Overland with a d.o.d. of 2/53. Closer inspection showed that it also has the little patent plate on the right wheelhouse, and no CAR number stamped on the frame. It DOES have a convoy light, primer pump, signal lights, etc.

The original owner bought it from Crown Assets in the 70's, and used it on his farm for 40+ years. It came with receipts for every part he ever purchased for it. His only restoration work was having a local paint shop match the paint under the hood, and the jeep was sprayed that colour. He also added a civvy top, etc. but kept every part he removed. When I was cleaning it out, I found several machine gun links under the gas tank, and in the bottom of the tool box. No sign of it ever having a machinegun mount, though.

How common were US made M-38A1's in Canadian service?

[chris vickery]

I have one as well although it was made at Willys it is stamped with a CFR. It is an American jeep outside the normal Ford contract.

[Clint Tauber]

Do we know how many were purchased from Willys, and why we bought them while they were being built by Ford already?

[chris vickery]

Clint
To my knowledge, these Willys were not purchases made during the Ford contract; they were either early purchases before a contract was made with Ford or an afterthought once the initial Ford contract was filled.
Perhaps someone with access to a serial number data base or CFR list can enlighten us.
The Willys I have is CFR 53-33136

[Clint Tauber]

I think the Army got some from the US Army during the Korean War, or slightly after. Maybe our jeeps came back from there?

[maple_leaf_eh]

Don't confuse the registration papers with reality. The issue is how clever was the clerk at the license bureau on the day. When I registered my M38A1 (as unfit for the road, but registered to me), the lady didn't have much to choose on the pulldown menus. I think it is a 1970 Jeep CJ5. My M151A2 isn't registered quite as accurately as I'd like, but that is how the system works.

If it is registered, that's enough. The folks here will know what you have.

[Clint Tauber]

It is definitely a Willys used by Canada, the original owner removed the data plates from the dash and re-painted the rest of the jeep, then replaced the plate without painting any of the plates. He did, however, paint over the little plate in the tub, which a Ford built one wouldn't have. I got a ton of paperwork with it, the old guy saved everything. I am 100% certain that the jeep was made by Willys, based on all the documentation. The original owner recorded the info from the plates, the paint colour, and a bunch of other stuff, but he didn't record the CAR number. There is no number stamped on the frame, so we may never know it.

[chris vickery]

Terry, we are not talking registration papers here. We are talking reality of having actual Willys data plates attached to our Jeeps. Mine is 100% US although it does carry a stamped CFR in the left front frame rail.
Clint, are you sure that you have no CFR on the frame rail? I know mine took a lot of searching and then some sanding to bring it up. If it wasn't stamped deeply it is possible to be covered in rut scale or paint.

[Clint Tauber]

100% certain, my frame was not rusty at all, and paint stripper revealed only shiny steel. I sanded it a bit, and even applied a few drops of gasoline just in case, but nothing there.

[chris vickery]

That is quite possible as I have heard this before.

[Frank v R]

the Toledo vehicles do pop up , I also owned one of these, ex First Hussars CO's vehicle, there has been no CFR list found as yet of the M-38's and M-38A1's , how or when the CF aquirred these is still a very big mystery , bottom line is they are Canadian and we did have them,

[Clint Tauber]

Originally Posted by Frank v R

the Toledo vehicles do pop up , I also owned one of these, ex First Hussars CO's vehicle, there has been no CFR list found as yet of the M-38's and M-38A1's , how or when the CF aquirred these is still a very big mystery , bottom line is they are Canadian and we did have them,

Indeed, this one is all Canadian other than the Willys plates. RCEME rebuild tags on some parts, headlight guards, security chain, convoy light, and signal lights. I recall seeing a photo taken shortly after the Korean War, in the DMZ I think, with Canadians using US M-38A1's. The ones used in Egypt also appear to be US jeeps. Perhaps the Toledo ones were used there, and were brought to Canada at some point?

Also, mine has no sign of having a machine gun mount, but there were enough links in the nooks and crannies that it must have had a machine gun mounted somehow. Any ideas? Some sort of temporary mount?

[Wayne Hingley]

Originally Posted by Clint Tauber

Also, mine has no sign of having a machine gun mount, but there were enough links in the nooks and crannies that it must have had a machine gun mounted somehow. Any ideas? Some sort of temporary mount?

The links are most likely from something like a C6 GPMG or some other MG that was carried by the infantry soldiers of the day. I believe the C6 has been in service since the late 70's in Canada, so it was probably an earlier similar gun.

[rob love]

C-6 (FN-MAG) did not enter service with Canada until the introduction of the Leopard in 1978. Other than the Leopards, there were no C6 GPMGs until they replaced the C5A1 (C1) in the 90s.

Prior to that (starting in the late 50s) it was the M1919A4 Browning, which in thelate 60 was converted to 7.62mm and given the designation C1 GPMG. In the late 70s, early 80s they had an upgrade which was going to require the A1 suffix on the model number. Because it could have led to confusion with the C1A1 FN rifle, the designation for the upgraded GPMG became C5A1. Note there was never a gun marked simply C5, although the RCMP's FRT tables have an entry for such a gun (they don't show a photo though since the gun never existed) and as well the little plastic user manual calls it the C5 machine gun.

There are a number of upgrades which will be incorporated into a new version of the C6 machine gun, making them the C6A1. Expected in 2017 (Liberals permitting), new guns will be purchased rendering the old ones surplus.

Sorry if I have wandered a little from the Jeeps in question.

The links could well have been from a C1 GPMG with bipod sandbagged onto the hood. They could also be some of the earlier 30-06 links as used on the original M1919A4. As well, there were some of the M31C pedestals in Canadian service, although there would be sings of it being mounted on the back floor of the Jeep.

[Clint Tauber]

The links appear to be from the 1919A4

[Frank v R]

as far as the GPMG mount goes almost all of the 53 A1's were out before they were widely used , my Willys did have the mount, there were M31C mounts in the system to the end of the M-38A1's service life in the late 80's, and they did mount those on both the 52's and 53's, as far as UN vehicles goes a great number were US supplied , friends that did tours in the Golan and Sinai had photos showing US M-151A1, M-37, M-715, M-35, etc,

[Eric B]

The first batch of M381's were bought from the US and shipped to Korea to replace the WW2 era jeeps.

We left the WW2 era vehicles there as well as the non compatible M series vehicles (M37, M211 etc) we bought directly from the US, to what was being built in Canada.

We did ship back the M38A1's and for some unknown reason removed the heaters before shipping.

So if you have a Canadian 1952/53 US built M38A1 then it was used in Korea.

More info can be found in "Canadian Vehicles in Korea" written by Don Dingwall and published by Service Publications.

We did not use the M38's in Korea, those were shipped to Germany.

Thanks
Eric

[Clint Tauber]

Originally Posted by Eric B

The first batch of M381's were bought from the US and shipped to Korea to replace the WW2 era jeeps.

We left the WW2 era vehicles there as well as the non compatible M series vehicles (M37, M211 etc) we bought directly from the US, to what was being built in Canada.

We did ship back the M38A1's and for some unknown reason removed the heaters before shipping.

So if you have a Canadian 1952/53 US built M38A1 then it was used in Korea.

More info can be found in "Canadian Vehicles in Korea" written by Don Dingwall and published by Service Publications.

We did not use the M38's in Korea, those were shipped to Germany.

Thanks
Eric

Cool, that makes sense too, as mine had the distribution box etc. but the previous owner had to buy the heater for it. I wonder why they removed the heaters???

[Clint Tauber]

Just cleaning up the jeep a bit yesterday, and found that it seems to have had Z-arm installed at some point. One nut is still in place and the rest of the holes were plugged with bondo. I thought the '53 jeeps didn't get Z-arms?

[rob love]

The instruction for the installation of the GPMG mount was 21 Mar 1975. The early M38 and M38A1s were disposed of with the introduction of the M151A2 fleet of 1974 production. So it is entirely possible that by the time the M151A2 made it to the unit, it well could have been 1976 before the M38A1 was withdrawn. In that case, it may have had the GPMG mount.

The installation instruction for the GPMG mount mentions that it is applicable to ECC 121101,121201,and 121301 which I believe was the three generations of M38A1 in Canadian service (M38A1, M38A1Cdn2, and M38A1Cdn3 respectively).

The NSNs listed appear to be more from about 1976 or even 1977, but sometimes it took a little time to codify the items.

[Clint Tauber]

My jeep was surplussed in 1974, from what I have read in the previous owner's records. Is it possible that there was an earlier version of the Z-arm? The M-38A1 in Denmark, 1968, on the cover of the Service Publications book, seems to have some sort of MG mount that resembles the Z arm.

[rob love]

Show a photo of the holes that you found. I would suggest 1974 would be too early for the standard side-mount.

[Clint Tauber]

I'll snap a photo once I get all the paint off. They don't show up well enough right now. I never even noticed them before, just happened to look from the right angle and two of them showed a bit in the sun. I can feel others with my finger. The old guy filled them really well!