C8A HUM census numbers?

[David Herbert]

With reference to Bruce's post #26, I think that the 'T' on the HUW refers to the radio gear being Tropicalised, ie. damp proofed.

David

[M.Morren]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Couple of pictures of a (new to me) C8A HUM in the Piana Delle Orme Museum in Italy.

Courtesy of Pierre-Olivier Buan.

Attachment 115657 Attachment 115658

Attachment 115659 Attachment 115660

Reached out to the museum and got some info on this ZL. I will add it to the list (I am hoping that they have the body tags too. Still waiting on a reply on that):



Note the 'C' stamped on this plate as well. My guess is that this was done on all Chrysler plates.




Here the updated list (I edited the URL's so the list is a bit easier to read, but we really need HTML on here so we can get some proper tables )

Chassis model | Cab Model | Chassis serial | Engine serial | Order no | Date of mfg | Vehicle model | Body Model | Body serial | Chrysler Serial-no | WD census no. | Source
C8A | 13 | 3844515289 | FR3918642 | LV.1697 | AUG. 12/43 | C.HU-441-M-PERS-1; 2nd plate: HU441-M-MACH-ZL-1 | 1C1 | 3924 | MACH-ZL-1-068 | ... | MLU thread: 14560 (Marty Morren, NL)
C8A | 13 | ... | ... | ... | ... | ... | ... | ... | ... | CZ4210145 | Flickr
C8A | 13 | 3844536668 | FR3969158 | LV.2611 | MAY 11/44 | ... | ... | ... | ... | ... | MLU post: 96568
C8A | 13 | 3844536670 | FR3969311 | LV.2611 | MAY 11/44 |C-8A-MACH-ZL-2 | ... | ... | ... | ... | MLU post: 174430 (Pieter Bergman, NL)
C8A | 13 | 3844536671 | FR3969368 | LV.2611 | MAY 11/44 | ... | ... | ... | ... | ... | MLU post: 129049 (Mark Coombs, USA)
C8A | 13 | 3844536682 | ... | LV.2611 | MAY 12/44 | C-8A-MACH-ZL-2; 2nd plate: HU441-M-MACH-ZL-1 | ... | ... | ... | CZ425579 | MLU post: 271791 (Museo Piana Delle Orme, Italy)
C8A | 13 | 3844536688 | FR3969099 | LV.2611 | MAY 12/44 | ... | ... | ... | ... | ... | MLU post: 9656
C8A | 13 | 3844536691 | FR3968926 | LV.2611 | MAY 15/44 | [plate missing] |1C1 | 6443 | ... | ... | MLU thread: 10033 (ex-Shayne McGuire, CDN - current location u/k)
C8A | 13 | 3844536696 | FR3969103 | LV.2611 | MAY 15/44 | C-8A-MACH-ZL-2; 2nd plate: HU441-M-MACH-ZL-1 | 1C1 | 6448 | MACH-ZL-1-087 | ... | MLU thread: 2179 (John Corden, UK)

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Great info, Marty!



PS: point taken about the HTML

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by david moore

From the list of vehicles of HQ 1st Can Army previously posted on this forum, I have kept a list of "HUP's" which may or may not include HUM's - it does include HUW's and HUA's - the relevant number ranges are as follows:
4213848 - 4214200
4228061 - 4229581
4236644 - 4236729

The total ranges may have been greater than this of course.

Here’s another C8A census number Z-4214033 which fits the first range you quoted.



Caption: “Canadian Broadcasting Corporation vehicle at Ortona, Italy, december 1943“ - this is Matthew Halton with his HUP. Phil Waterman knows more about him.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Not a HUM, but another HUP with a clear census number and a rather high one it seems:

Z5914135

Note it is used by the Canadian Army, but the census number is British.

Amsterdam, 5 May 1945.


Source: https://archief.amsterdam/beeldbank/...1-c1f37c490834

[David Dunlop]

Hi Hanno.

Any idea where in Amsterdam that was taken?

To my tired eyes, that looks like a number of German military personnel standing on the property to the right, and quite a lot of them seem to be smiling.

David

[Alex van de Wetering]

Note it is use by the Canadian Army, but the census number is British.

Hanno, why do you say the Census number is British? There are several late war pictures of Canadian vehicles with census numbers starting with "59"....some with the "C" prefix, but a lot of them without.
The 59 range according to the Chilwell list is "Various allotted to middle east", but I think these were given to Canadian vehicles when they ran out of room in the 42....range.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Hi Hanno.

Any idea where in Amsterdam that was taken?

To my tired eyes, that looks like a number of German military personnel standing on the property to the right, and quite a lot of them seem to be smiling.

David

David,

Hanno's link gives the location as "Van Baerlestraat" at the location of the old Iceskating club. I just found out that the building was taken down in 1947 and the ice rink is what we now call the "Museumplein"...the scene of an anti Covid lockdown demonstration, today!

[david moore]

That is a Canadian vehicle - see the maple leaf sign at the rear.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by david moore

That is a Canadian vehicle - see the maple leaf sign at the rear.

I'm thinking HQ (the 9) 1st Canadian Army.

[Ed Storey]

The vehicle may even have come up with the Corps from Italy.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Hanno, why do you say the Census number is British? There are several late war pictures of Canadian vehicles with census numbers starting with "59"....some with the "C" prefix, but a lot of them without.
The 59 range according to the Chilwell list is "Various allotted to middle east", but I think these were given to Canadian vehicles when they ran out of room in the 42....range.

Because the census number does not come from a range of numbers allocated to the Canadian Army Overseas - see post #12 above. So that means it was part of a block of census numbers assigned to British contracts. Now, we know that many vehicles acquired by the British government were allotted to Canadian and other allied armies. In that case vehicles from British contracts often got a “C” added, but many did not as this HUP shows.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Because the census number does not come from a range of numbers allocated to the Canadian Army Overseas - see post #12 above.

That list dates from July 1943, so I am not sure if that allows us to draw conclusions on vehicles seen in 1944/45. I mean, I question that a Canadian vehicle census starting with 59 (or basically any 7 figure number not starting with 42) is automatically an (ex) British contract vehicle.

For instance, a number of C60L APT's have come up for sale over the past few years, some which seemingly still have their original paint and census....they start with "59" and are from contract SM 6520. So, is this a Canadian or British contract?
I have no proof, but I don't think Canadian contract census numbers ended at 4299999, but more likely more census numbers were needed and numbers previously not taken up were used.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Hi Alex,

It is not so much the high census number range. But if the census number was not preceded by a “C” it was not a vehicle produced under a Canadian contract.

And:
• SM = Supply Mechanical, these were British contracts.
• CD and/or LV = Contract Demand (Land Vehicles (?)), these were Canadian contracts.
Read more here: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1965

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

That list dates from July 1943, so I am not sure if that allows us to draw conclusions on vehicles seen in 1944/45. I mean, I question that a Canadian vehicle census starting with 59 (or basically any 7 figure number not starting with 42) is automatically an (ex) British contract vehicle.

For instance, a number of C60L APT's have come up for sale over the past few years, some which seemingly still have their original paint and census....they start with "59" and are from contract SM 6520. So, is this a Canadian or British contract?
I have no proof, but I don't think Canadian contract census numbers ended at 4299999, but more likely more census numbers were needed and numbers previously not taken up were used.

[Alex van de Wetering]

But if the census number was not preceded by a “C” it was not a vehicle produced under a Canadian contract.

I don't think I agree; that might have been the "rule", but period pictures show that the reality was often different. There are plenty of pictures of Canadian vehicles without the "C" prefix, both in the 42..-43 range, as well as higher numbers starting with 55, 56 or 59. The 42..-43 range as we all know was for Canadian contracts, but even with the picture of the CBC HUP above, you can see that the "C" was often omitted, and therefor in my opinion, you can't say a vehicle is British contract by just the lack of a "C" prefix.
Especially in late war pictures you see a lot of Softskins without the C-prefix, but with Armour the lack of a "C" seems more common, like T16 carriers, Shermans, Staghounds.

And:
• SM = Supply Mechanical, these were British contracts.
• CD and/or LV = Contract Demand (Land Vehicles (?)), these were Canadian contracts.
Read more here: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1965

Thanks Hanno!

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

I don't think the contract had anything to do with the C. I think it had more to do with on whose charge it was.

In Italy sometimes the C was omitted on Canadian vehicles to confuse Germans into thinking they might be British.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

I'll do a proper write up someday of what I have found about this subject.

We need to differentiate between the supply side (as in: which vehicle types were delivered to which countries under which contracts) and the demand side (which vehicle types were used by which Army).

For now I'll leave it with a quote from Drive to Victory:

Instructions issued during the war, on several occasions, were very specific on the use of census numbers. As Canada rented many vehicles from the British, especially in the first 18 months of the war although it remained a practice throughout the war, units were advised not to add the 'C' prefix to these rented vehilces. This clearly shows the Canadian prefix denoted true ownership and not simply use.

Hence my remark about the HUP shown above. It cleary is in use with the Canadian Army (unit markings, date & location), but it has a British War Department number (it has no "C"). Hence it was built under a contract from the British War Department and then loaned to the Canadian Army - the preceding "C" was not added as per the instructions. Of course its ownership could have been transferred to the Canadian Army, they would have then been allowed to add the "C" - in this case they may not have had the time or inclination to do so.

In any case I'll bet you that HUP had a data plate with a contract number starting with "S/M".

Question: could someone with a copy of C8A-04 Illustrated Spare Parts Manual for the C8A check the order numbers referenced in there, please?
I read that the June 1945 version of C8A-04 lists 41 contracts, both British S/M and Canadian CDLV (or LV).

[Alex van de Wetering]

Hanno,

This is definately a interesting subject to dive into a little more, as I think there is a discrepancy between the actual regulations and the reality. Your suggestion of the C8A Manual would be a nice start.

I think the "C" prefix only works one way....if a vehicle has a "C" you can be sure it's a Canadian contract or Canadian owned vehicle (As Clive wrote in Drive to Victory). But, if it doesn't have the "C" you can't be sure if it's a Canadian or British contract (or owned) vehicle.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Question: could someone with a copy of C8A-04 Illustrated Spare Parts Manual for the C8A check the order numbers referenced in there, please?
I read that the June 1945 version of C8A-04 lists 41 contracts, both British S/M and Canadian CDLV (or LV).

Thank you Mr Hupmeister!

Interesting to see the list of British SPLY/MECH (S/M) orders, and the list of miscellaneous orders for Canada, New Zealand, China and France. The last two were a surprise to me.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Chassis model | Cab Model | Chassis serial | Engine serial | Order no | Date of mfg | Vehicle model | Body Model | Body serial | Chrysler Serial-no | WD census no. | Source
C8A | 13 | 3844536671 | FR3969368 | LV.2611 | MAY 11/44 | ... |... |... |... |... | http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...671#post129049 (Mark Coombs, USA)

Here's a picture from Wheels & Tracks magazine of Mark Coombs' C8A Mach ZL-2:

Originally Posted by Brian Gough

Phil,

Would you be thinking of Mark Coombs of San Diego? He has a Mach ZL-2, serial 3844536671, built May 11/44 on contract LV2611. It was pictured in W&T 44, p. 45 - actually Bart Vanderveen credited you for first reporting on it.

Mark came to Oshawa a few years ago and saw all the HUPs here that we could find to show him. I too have no direct contact with him recently and I don't think he is around on this Forum.

Brian

[Alex van de Wetering]

I stumbled upon these Machinery ZL pictures yesterday; they are Post-war though. They do show that at least one was still in use in Homeland Canada as late as 1952.
The text in the magazines also describes the addition of a Wireless set to the ZL.

They are snaps from RCEME Quarterly issues that are available online;
https://archive.org/details/%40rceme...licdate&page=3

July 1951
January 1952
July 1952