M113 track

[Bob Phillips]

Can any of the well informed readers out there give me a brief tutorial on M113 track? I believe that original type track in Canadian service was eventually replaced by Dehl (??) track. Why? What is the difference, which was better and did it mean you needed drive sprockets or roadwheels specific to the type of track you used?
I also read that many/most remaining M113s have been re-equipped with solid rubber track. Anybody know about this type and how widely used it is- any old style track still in service?? All comments apprciated...BP

[Ed Storey]

Iltis and M113A1 Wepaons of War booklets

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Now available. Go to www.servicepub.com to order on-line


__________________
Those who live by the sword will be shot by those of us who have progressed.
- M38A1, 67-07800, ex LETE
- M100 Trailer ex crement
- 1985 Iltis and M101CDN2 trailer (until my son pays me back)
- 1986 Iltis ambulance

[rob love]

There are 4 generations of track that I know of. First was the stock American track which was replaced in the late 70s by the German Diehl 213B track. They had a problem with end connectors coming off, so had to impose speed restrictions until a newer 213G track was installed, sometime around 82. That remained the in service track on the Mii3A1 and for the conversion to M113A2. Around 2001, a company that made track for the BV206 did an unsolicited development of the rubber band type track. When the fleet was converted to M113A3 (TLAV) that track became the standard. I think there still may be the odd vehicle out there that did not get the upgrades, because I recently noted there is still Diehl track stuff in the system.

Sprockets for each brand are unique, but the roadhweels and idler remain the same. The rubber band track is extremely quiet. The vehicles sound more like a city bus that an armoured vehicle.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi

Interesting info on the tracks, any photos of the different track types?

Cheers Phil

[Bob Phillips]

Thanks all for comments- Thanks also Ed, I DO have your M113 book and its very informative. Do you know ...is there a TM specifically dealing with the track, track repair etc or does this come in the general service TM?
According to a military publication I read a few eeeks ago the solid rubber track was running 36K per set when it first came out.. I also note that M113 shoes are still being manufactured in diverse place such as Korea and Israel.

[maple_leaf_eh]

The continuous rubber band track was/is made by SOUCY somewhere in Quebec. (I suppose they ran out of versions of rubber boots to sell to the Army and had to think more creatively.)

TLAV is the family name for the stretched 6 roadwheel family of M113s.

[Douglas Greville]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi

Interesting info on the tracks, any photos of the different track types?

Cheers Phil

Phil

The original track in US use was T130, this was superceded by T130E1, the differences are minor and you have to look really close to notice. This was then superceded by T150, which is a dual pin track.

Canada may have skipped T130E1 due to going to Diehl 213.

There are two types of Diehl 213, used by a number of countries. I have yet to find anyone who has the documents to define which is the correct suffix for each version.

Effectively they look identical from the front and rear, but have very different pins.

One has faceted pins for the end connector, the other has round pins and respective end connector, but with an alignment groove across the face of the pin.

I will try and attach pics so you can see the difference.

Supposedly one type is a "B" and the other a "G", but I get differing identifications with those 2 letters applied to both types.

At this stage, only something official will solve the issue.

Likewise the "Ice Cleats" (actually a tapered spike), everyone who served on an M113 fitted with Diehl 213 knew that was what went in the hole next to the track pad, but nobody seems to have a photo of one.

Regards
Doug

[Douglas Greville]

Forgot to say, that there is another Diehl variant, 513, this uses a "window" for the sprocket teeth. The whole idea was to decrease the forces at play on the end connector. On this version, the end connector serves to join the track, nothing more. There is a small alignment pin that sticks out of the main pin at a 90°C angle in the slot where the end connector bolt thread can be seen.

The pads are longer and do not have the metal "fin" the full length the way
the 213 pad does. Fin is only at each end of the pad.

Will just see if I can find a photo.

I have not heard of Canada using 513.

Regards
Doug

[rob love]

I have documentation on the Diehl tracks. The CF was going to a wider track around 2003 as part of the TLAV conversion, but they seem to have gone with the Soucey rubber track for the most part.

[rob love]

Had a look at Google images for TLAV track and the first image shows the track that Douglas showed 2 posts back.

[rob love]

Investigated a bit further regarding the tracks on the Canadian M113s.

The Diehl 213B track was the one with the flat spot on the pins. Originally installed in the latter half of the 70s, they were prone to shedding their end connectors, and the fleet was subject to severe speed limitations and no use of public roads while it was being investigated. Being of the "live track" variety, there was potential for the broken track to climb onto the vehicle and hurt the crew commander.

The M113 fleet (including the Lynx) changed over to the Diehl 213G track in the early 80s. The pins look round, but are described as hexagonal in the manuals. I'll have to have a closer look at some of our spare track sections to see if this is the case. The end connectors are also slightly re-enforced over the pins.

Re the 513, Canada was going to it, and it was fielded for the M113A3 fleet. However, at some point the decision was made to go entirely to the Soucey rubber band track, and the 513 is now gone from the Canadian system. We hold one section of this track out in the shed I believe.

Re ice grousers, they are a very real consideration here in Canada. I have not seen any documented evidence that we used the pin type Douglas describes, but rather we used the type that were installed in place of the track pad. I think they went on every 4th section of track, but I would have to confirm that in case anyone really needs to know. Edited to add I confirmed they are in fact every 7th or 8th pad. I also noted that there are ice grousers for the Soucey track. They appear to be more akin to the radial tire cables used on cars and light trucks.

[Douglas Greville]

Rob

Very interesting and thanks for the clarification.

I do wonder if the ice spikes and the grousers that go in place of the track pads are 2 differing uses?
WW2 smooth rubber block track ie. seen on Stuart/Grant/Lee/Sherman had grousers that were typically placed every 4 links. You probably know the ones I mean. I have never seen them described for ice use.

I doubt the Diehl grousers would be much use on say ice sheets, but would be typically used on snow or for improved traction in say muddy conditions?

I do note that even with grousers fitted, the Diehl track can still have the spikes fitted at the same time.

Don't know, just theorising?

As to the issue of end connectors coming off, it appears to have been solely
a Diehl related problem. Over here, it was traced back to failure to follow the installation instructions.
It is absolutely essential that the preservative is thoroughly cleaned off the pins and bores of the end connectors before joining. This requires solvent, brushes and rags. Something that may not be available in the field.
Likewise the correct torque on the end connector bolts.

Diehl were very specific about that: but if the information doesn't get to the
person doing the track bashing or that person decides not to follow the
instructions or does not have the brush/solvent/rags then tragedy can
happen.

Diehl light track (ie M113 family various versions) has seen track life of between 11,000 and 14,000 km reliably, which is pretty impressive compared to T130!

The heavier track with a centre connector is more forgiving of bad assembly as the loss of an outer connector doesn't mean immediate shedding of the track - or am I wrong?

Regards
Doug

Originally Posted by rob love

Investigated a bit further regarding the tracks on the Canadian M113s.

The Diehl 213B track was the one with the flat spot on the pins. Originally installed in the latter half of the 70s, they were prone to shedding their end connectors, and the fleet was subject to severe speed limitations and no use of public roads while it was being investigated. Being of the "live track" variety, there was potential for the broken track to climb onto the vehicle and hurt the crew commander.

The M113 fleet (including the Lynx) changed over to the Diehl 213G track in the early 80s. The pins look round, but are described as hexagonal in the manuals. I'll have to have a closer look at some of our spare track sections to see if this is the case. The end connectors are also slightly re-enforced over the pins.

Re the 513, Canada was going to it, and it was fielded for the M113A3 fleet. However, at some point the decision was made to go entirely to the Soucey rubber band track, and the 513 is now gone from the Canadian system. We hold one section of this track out in the shed I believe.

Re ice grousers, they are a very real consideration here in Canada. I have not seen any documented evidence that we used the pin type Douglas describes, but rather we used the type that were installed in place of the track pad. I think they went on every 4th section of track, but I would have to confirm that in case anyone really needs to know.

I also noted that there are ice grousers for the Soucey track. They appear to be more akin to the radial tire cables used on cars and light trucks.

[rob love]

You are right Douglas. According to the manual the grousers were meant for when the ground would not provide adequate traction (I think they used the term boggy) and were not for use on hard surface. If they did have to be driven for short distance on hard surface, speed was limited to 10mph.

Our carriers had racks on the sides to hold these things. I can't say I ever saw them installed outside of a track course. It was usually too cold to be doing a lot of optional maintenance during the winter months.

[Douglas Greville]

Rob

Fancy some 40°C heat instead? ;-(

So, does anyone have a photo of a Diehl ice spike or even have one in
their possession, or are they a theoretical item that never actually existed
outside of Diehl prototypes?

As to the Diehl grousers, I have seen plenty of photos of them, especially on
the front of Leopards, but don't ever recall seeing a photo of any in actual use.

Regards
Doug

Originally Posted by rob love

You are right Douglas. According to the manual the grousers were meant for when the ground would not provide adequate traction (I think they used the term boggy) and were not for use on hard surface. If they did have to be driven for short distance on hard surface, speed was limited to 10mph.

Our carriers had racks on the sides to hold these things. I can't say I ever saw them installed outside of a track course. It was usually too cold to be doing a lot of optional maintenance during the winter months.

[rob love]

The ice spike is not mentioned in any of the literature I have seen for the diehl track in Canadian use.

I saw a decent presentation on the Diehl track on the net the other day. It shows some of their track used on Warsaw block equipment as well.
http://www.atlantic-bg.org/files/con...nd_Systems.pdf

[Douglas Greville]

Rob

Thanks, I am downloading it now. Surprising how little info there is about
Diehl track. Their website is pretty useless. May go some way to explaining
why they got into financial difficulty.

Regards
Doug

Originally Posted by rob love

The ice spike is not mentioned in any of the literature I have seen for the diehl track in Canadian use.

I saw a decent presentation on the Diehl track on the net the other day. It shows some of their track used on Warsaw block equipment as well.
http://www.atlantic-bg.org/files/con...nd_Systems.pdf

[45jim]

We used these regularly. Especially when we deployed to Chilcotin (BC) for winter ex, where without them the tracks just would just spin. They worked well in snow and icy conditions but with the limited weight of the vehicle and their fairly large surface area they would not punch through really thick ice and you'd be skating rather than sliding, but we're comfortable on skates in Canada!

They were used sporadically in Wainwright and Suffield it just depended on conditions that particular winter. The open plains of Alberta never got enough snow to make them absolutely necessary but we used them every time in BC. I can remember the SSM going up one side and down the other of a driver that forgot that "one" grouser when we drove on the highway to the railhead. Little "X's" all along the highway, a trail to follow.

[Douglas Greville]

Hello all,

I fluked upon a not so good pair of photos of the fabled Diehl 213 Ice Spike!

All being well, it should be attached to this post.

Does this ring any bells for anyone who used this track?

Regards
Doug

[Robin Craig]

Can anyone of you learned people ID this track please?

The rubber is missing I know

Thank you all