Canadian Centurion tanks question

[Mike Cecil]

We are straying somewhat from Malcolm's initial question, but I think that has been answered satisfactorily by this stage anyway.

Australian Centurions sent to SVN - gun tanks, command tanks and dozer tanks - were fitted with:
- RG (with associated changes to the sighting system to correspond to the new ranging technique)
- applique armour on the glacis plate
- IR
- LR armoured fuel tank on the rear,
- internal changes to allow stowage of the IR sights & periscopes, the IR batteries, and the .50 cal ammunition liners.

... with one exception: one of the first two dozer tanks sent to SVN in 1968 was not fitted with RG and IR, and was not fitted with the basket, commonly called an IR basket, on the rear of the turret. A 'home grown' basket of smaller size was fitted in SVN to provide additional stowage.

Mike

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Australian Centurions sent to SVN - gun tanks, command tanks and dozer tanks - were fitted with:
- RG (with associated changes to the sighting system to correspond to the new ranging technique)
- applique armour on the glacis plate
- IR
- LR armoured fuel tank on the rear,
- internal changes to allow stowage of the IR sights & periscopes, the IR batteries, and the .50 cal ammunition liners.

Mike,

A Mk 5/1 LR with RG and IR?

Cheers,
Dan

[Mike Cecil]

Yes: the Mk5/1 (an uparmoured Mk5) with the 20-pdr combined with the RG was, as far as I know, unique to Australia, though Australia did not officially list a different nomenclature for that combination, leaving it as either a Mk5 or Mk5/1. Neither did Australia use the 'LR' suffix in the nomenclature to indicate the addition of the rear armoured fuel tank.

The combination of the 20-pdr and RG required a different sight reticle, (among other changes), to the 105-mm - equipped tanks with RG.

Mike

[Dave Mills]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

We are straying somewhat from Malcolm's initial question, but I think that has been answered satisfactorily by this stage anyway.

Australian Centurions sent to SVN - gun tanks, command tanks and dozer tanks - were fitted with:
- RG (with associated changes to the sighting system to correspond to the new ranging technique)
- applique armour on the glacis plate
- IR
- LR armoured fuel tank on the rear,
- internal changes to allow stowage of the IR sights & periscopes, the IR batteries, and the .50 cal ammunition liners.

... with one exception: one of the first two dozer tanks sent to SVN in 1968 was not fitted with RG and IR, and was not fitted with the basket, commonly called an IR basket, on the rear of the turret. A 'home grown' basket of smaller size was fitted in SVN to provide additional stowage.

Mike

Hello Mike, have been following this thread with interest. Living in Seymour and being near Pucka the home of Armour I know many SVN veterans and have spoken today with these veterans from 68/69 1st Armoured Regiment. A Driver said no way was sand used - Fuel was the life line, Mechanic said that in 1968 a .50 Cal round punctured a tank, fuel leaked out and ignited from the burning grass and another fuel tank got blown off by an RPG and due to the mounting bolts being the only thing holding it in place it got blown off and did not ignite. And a tank refueller who said that every night all fuel tanks were topped off with fuel and no sand. They all agreed with your thread about the baskets etc.

In this time they even produced the arourmed protection for the .50 Cal on the M113 out of the track guards from the Cent as they removed them pretty quickly in the jungles of SVN.

Speaking to these blokes who had boots on the ground at the time I would not doubt their recalling of knowledge.

They discounted that in 1968 / 69 that sand was used to fill up the rear external fuel tank. With all of them career Soldiers serving in the unit until the late 80's and that they had never heard of the practice and that fuel was every thing to them.

Cheers,

Dave.

[Mike Cecil]

Thanks, Dave, for checking that out. I'd not heard of filling the rear armoured fuel tank with sand either, but you can learn something new every day, hence my query to Tony.

Tony - have you had a chance to locate that quote yet, please? I've had a quick look in Jungle Tracks, but didn't see it.

Regards

Mike

[jdmcm]

Dave

great research on the Vietnam Centurions, best to go to the source! I have always been a Centurion fan, fascinated in part because as a kid it was one of the first actual tanks I had ever seen up close and in person in the form of a gate guard at Sarcee Barracks in Calgary, that Centurion now at the War Museums of Alberta. They had actually welded handles on the Centurion and Sherman to make climbing on them even easier...ahh the good old days before lawyers ruined the world.

As I have learned more about the Australians use of the Centurion in Vietnam, I have to say I have a newfound excitement and appreciation for this tank, reading and watching the documentaries about the Centurions in action at Binh Bah and the defense of FOB Coral and Balmoral is fascinating. When you think of tanks in Vietnam, which really isn't something usually equated with that conflict, you think of M48's, maybe M41's and the occasional T54 and PT76. I think the use of the Centurion and the Australian modifications to same is something every Centurion fanatic should immerse themselves in. And to get the information right from the tankers that served on these machines is amazing. The Centurion tank, definitely one for my bucket list.

[Mike Cecil]

John,

Sounds like you need to read 'Canister! On! Fire!' by Bruce Cameron, detailing Aust tank operations in South Vietnam. There is a book review of it on here somewhere.

I have a spare copy which would minimise the postage cost.

Mike

[Malcolm Towrie]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

We are straying somewhat from Malcolm's initial question, but I think that has been answered satisfactorily by this stage anyway.

Mike, just to close the loop, you said in a PM I think that our tank is a rather unique Canadian Mk 5/2 fitted with IR equipment and a 20 pdr. Do I have that correct?

Malcolm

[jdmcm]

I would love to get a copy of that Mike!

Regards
John

[Mike Cecil]

Malcolm,

That was before the info in posts 38 & 46 popped up. It was identified as a Mk5/2 ECC118109: a Mk5/2 with IR and RG - a configuration which appears to be unique to Canada, but not so unique within Canada, if you get what I mean.

Seems to me all it needs to return it to that configuration is to change to 20-pdr for a 105mm barrel.

John: I'll PM you about the book.

Mike

[rob love]

From the ELD L112 4th revision.

ECC 118105; Tank, combat, full tracked, medium gun, armoured, Centurion, mk5

ECC 118109 Tank, combat, full tracked, 105mm gun, Centurion MK 5/2 fitted with RMG

ECC 118110 Tank, combat, full tracked, 105mm gunned, armoured centurion mkII

ECC 118203 Tank, combat, full tracked, medium, command, armoured, centurion Mk 5

ECC 118401 Tank, bridge layer, full tracked, heavy, armoured, Centurion Mk 5

ECC 118801 Recovery Vehicle, full tracked, heavy, armoured, Centurion mk2

[Dave Mills]

Speaking further with a veteran today he pointed me to a publication which he had and is a fantastic read of Aust armour in Vietnam.

"Vietnam Tracks Armor in Battle" - USA publication hence the spelling of Armor and not Armour.

ISBN - 0850454727

Pages 160 - 180 which focus on the Aust Armour.

Went to the Armour Museum the other day and worked with a former RAEME mech now in his 70's who was replacing the bushes and adjusting the gear selector rods on the Musuems Cent. Fantastic just fantastic, apparently the gear changes between 2nd and 3rd if not done fast and correctly would bog the Cent.
He said most drivers did full noise and from 1st to 3rd as fast as possible. One day we will not have these Vets around and I enjoy every minute that I get with them. The Pucka museum is great and so hands on if you know the right people.

Cheers,

Dave.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by rob love

From the ELD L112 4th revision.

ECC 118110 Tank, combat, full tracked, 105mm gunned, armoured centurion mkII.

Rob,

The only difference in ECC's between your list and mine, is the ECC for a Centurion Mk 11. Mine shows it as 118305 while yours shows it as 118110. I'm wondering if it was changed in the three years between my source document and yours. I doubt one vehicle was issued two Codes.

Thanks for posting this, as now I have something else to research, and to me, that's all the fun.

Cheers,
Dan.

[jdmcm]

Bit off topic,and perhaps Hanno will move this to a more appropriate place, but I was wondering about the Anzac tankers crewing the Centurions in Vietnam, did they wear a mix of Australian and US gear? I have seen the APC crews wearing what look like US pattern armored vehicle crew helmets with radio mikes, but not sure if I have ever seen the Centurion crews wear those, perhaps someone could advise as to radio configurations and the like on the RAAC tanks. Were the uniforms, flak jackets and web gear a mix of the US and Australian or was that just the inevitable trading back and forth between the troops?